Grivel Pick Geometry - Ice vs Alpine

I wasn't able to find much information about these picks before ordering them, so maybe this will help someone.  Here is a comparison of the Grivel "Ice" pick vs the "Alpine" pick.  I feel like "Alpine" is an odd name but it's basically a more aggressive mixed pick.

Here's a comparison of the overall angle of the pick when it's mounted on the tool:

And, here's the two tool hooked onto the same hold, hanging at about the "natural" angle if you weight them:

The "Alpine" (mixed) pick definitely has a steeper and more aggressive angle, which may make hooking and edges more positive.  On the flip side, you lose a bit of reach, and swinging into ice might be awkward.

I haven't climbed ice on these yet (it is only October, after all) so time will tell if I end up going back to the Ice picks for pure water ice.  The Alpine picks seem sweet for drytooling season though!

Congrats on the Tech Machines! I regret trading mine 

Thank you for getting both of them to compare, I was going through the same thought process trying to decide which picks to get for the upcoming season on my tech machines. 

Please update as you get on some ice to what your take is! 

What tape are you using? Super clean tape job

Evan Stone wrote:

What tape are you using? Super clean tape job

3M Temflex 2155.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b00017540/

I've been really happy with it, it's tacky but not icky, goes on easily, pretty durable...

DeLa Cruce wrote:

Congrats on the Tech Machines! I regret trading mine 

Are they good? I picked up a set of tech machine carbons for 300$ 

Ryan Eames wrote:

Are they good? I picked up a set of tech machine carbons for 300$ 

Pretty much all modern tools are great, just a lot of personal preference in terms of the way they swing, different handles, etc.

Looks the same as the "Mixed" pick Grivel previously sold, which seemingly had the same angle as well as an annoying hammer attachment tab. Grivels last generation of hammers were awful imo, as the holes really did not align with those on the mounting tab. The new generation is interested as the hammers are basically welded pieces of plate it looks like rather than a forged head - a recent thread about breaking one of these hammers makes me think Grivel is just missing the target on this front! Or they're creating artificial demand for their Thor tools, similar to how BD floods gear stores with their shitty tape so climbers give up taping gloves and buy their crack gloves ;)

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Pretty much all modern tools are great, just a lot of personal preference in terms of the way they swing, different handles, etc.

One thing I like about Grivel is that they make forged picks rather than using stock plate like most companies will (funny enough is that Grivel makes both forged and stock picks last I checked). A forging should roughly create a grain structure (visible by electron microscope) in line with the pick geometry, making it stronger and less likely to introduce cracks where the grain structure has been cut. This little sketch for shackles shows it nicely. 

Nol H wrote:

One thing I like about Grivel is that they make forged picks rather than using stock plate like most companies will

Don’t Petzl and BD (who I think started doing this a season or two ago) also forge their picks?

Bryce Dahlgren wrote:

Don’t Petzl and BD (who I think started doing this a season or two ago) also forge their picks?

yes

Ryan Eames wrote:

Are they good? I picked up a set of tech machine carbons for 300$ 

I had the aluminum version, and the handle was a bit off for me, but I wish I had kept them, they still climbed great. A friend had some 2nd gen nomics so we traded, as those were great tools. Shortly thereafter, the nomics started their head wobble and so I regretted getting rid of the tech machines. 

Bryce Dahlgren wrote:

Don’t Petzl and BD (who I think started doing this a season or two ago) also forge their picks?

I'm just not that observant, thanks :)

I believe that the “Alpine” blades were only ever designed to be used with the Light Machine.  If you go to Grivel‘s website, the “compatible“ tools are listed for each pick.

Conversely, the ice tool web pages have a list of recommended blades for each tool.  The “Total Dry Vario” is the blade Grivel designed for dry tooling with the Tech Machine.  

I like the ”Total Dry Vario” blades for alpine style drytooling, where you have to torque your picks in cracks.  I prefer Krukonogi picks for sport style drytooling, where no torquing is required.  

For reference, I have provided a picture of the Total Dry blade overlaying the Ice blade:

Karl Henize wrote:

I believe that the “Alpine” blades were only ever designed to be used with the Light Machine.

Why would you not be able to use all of the Vario picks with Vario compatible tools?

I like the ”Total Dry Vario” blades for alpine style drytooling, where you have to torque your picks in cracks.

I considered these, but was not too psyched on picks which are not forged.  One of the main reasons to use Grivel tools, in my opinion, is to use their great forged picks.  I did consider Kruk picks, but decided I preferred to keep that money for my mortgage payment.

For reference, I have provided a picture of the Total Dry blade overlaying the Ice blade:

It seems odd to have a more open pick angle on the "dry" pick than the "ice" pick?

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Why would you not be able to use all of the Vario picks with Vario compatible tools?

It seems odd to have a more open pick angle on the "dry" pick than the "ice" pick?

Obviously, the vario blades fit all of the heads, but the geometry of the Alpine blade seems to have been designed primarily for use on the Light Machine, which has less bend in the shaft than the other Grivel ice tools.  The steeper angle of the Alpine pick compensates for the straighter shaft of the Light Machine.

The more open pick angle on the dry pick is does make it easier to get into cracks and pockets. The more pronounced beak on the end of the blade offers hooking performance comparable to the Ice blade, despite the more open pick angle.