Runners/Cyclists & climbing???

I want to hear your experiences with climbing/training and intense aerobic endurance exercise for more than 2 hours. Any climbers who are also swimmers/cyclists/runners in this group? I’ve started climbing and training more consistently and want to project 12’s. I am doing far less aerobic exercise than I really want to because I simply can’t just go for 30min. It’s like I NEED an hr+ once I get started. Preferably much more of aerobic exercise.  Does anyone have experience balancing this? Can I run a marathon and send V5? Can I race MTB and send 5.12? I mean, has any normal person (not world class athlete) actually done this?  

Ps I have oodles of time to train/sleep/eat right

Yeah I think so for sure. I do a lot of mountain running and uphill skiing (big vert days for both!) and am respectably fit but by no means world class and can also send 5.12. I am not sure if you are joking about the oodles of time or not, for me even if I had it my body doesn’t have the energy to be moving *all* the time.

But I find I can make progress in my climbing only doing it about 2-3days/week, and then I do endurance 3 days/ week, and maybe do one or both those activities an extra day depending on the week. I take a lot of rest days. Honestly my training isn’t very structured for either, but I suspect if it was, I could send 5.13 and put up some pretty fast endurance times on this schedule. If you only focus on one thing, you can definitely be better at it probably, but that’s a little boring to me and I find that I can be pretty good at both.

Also maybe try some endurance climbing (multi pitch or volume crag days) - if you like endurance sports and climbing you might find this really fun, I know I do. I think it helps my sending grades and general aerobic capacity.

Idk, everyone’s body is unique and I’m not sure what your limiting constraint is (time, energy, belief) but I definitely think you can do this.

also I want to add, whatever they say about some kinds of athletes having legs that are too big to be ideal for climbing….it’s a lie. My leg muscles from endurance mountain sports definitely help my climbing

A few thoughts on this - have you identified what's standing between your climbing now and where you want it to go?  Are you lacking the power for big moves to break into the 12s?  Are you not able to hang onto the tiniest crux holds?  Are you bouldering V4 solidly? The answers will help you to use your training time most effectively (and I'm referring to rock-specific training, not the aerobic stuff, and not just "hard gym sessions"). I suspect pounding out 50 mile bike rides is not the thing that'll bump up your climbing game. At worst, it'll drain your energy so that you aren't getting the most out of the sort of focused training you need to be doing to nail the 12s.

On the plus side, I don't think a "reasonable" amount of big aerobic work is going to hurt you. It certainly can help you maintain a fighting weight. You should include regular stretching in your routine too, as (IME...10 year triathlete) those hours on the bike can tighten up the hamstrings to the detriment of your climbing flexibility.

Yes. I have ran 80 mile weeks and climbed 3-4 days a week. They complement each other extremely well, imo. Just ask Hobbs Kessler

I think climbing is way more endurance-focused than people either realize or accept. The exception to that being pure bouldering, but shit - the 30-minute walk to the boulder with a big pad, high altitude, and vert, is plenty enough aerobic training to prepare you for an entry-level bike race. 

Doug, I'd contend that the way many (most?) people climb is not as similar as one might think to traditional high level cycling/running/etc. It's rare to take 15-30+ min breaks during an aerobic event, which is how many people structure their climbing. This is where simuling easy/moderate routes might utilize that aerobic capacity. agree that there def is an aerobic component but it's usually not at the same consistency as cycling/running/trekking.

As others have mentioned, it's 100% possible to be at a reasonably high level in both. Kessler trains with an old mate of mine, though he's obviously a miler, not a marathoner. Closer to home on that front, Ryan Tetz does just fine in longer events and climbs pretty solidly, so look no further than him for your example of doing longer, harder stuff, both on rock and road/trail.

Emily Thompson wrote:

I want to hear your experiences with climbing/training and intense aerobic endurance exercise for more than 2 hours. Any climbers who are also swimmers/cyclists/runners in this group? I’ve started climbing and training more consistently and want to project 12’s. I am doing far less aerobic exercise than I really want to because I simply can’t just go for 30min. It’s like I NEED an hr+ once I get started. Preferably much more of aerobic exercise.  Does anyone have experience balancing this? Can I run a marathon and send V5? Can I race MTB and send 5.12? I mean, has any normal person (not world class athlete) actually done this?  

Ps I have oodles of time to train/sleep/eat right

Yes, I have met the benchmarks you describe while training for IMs. (Hawaii 2007   ) But everyone is different, your body may have different needs.

Can you run and race and climb at a decently high level? Yes. Can you run/race well and climb at a decently high level? Probably not. Training for climbing at a good level has  breaks/rest built in, so you certainly have time to run/ride in between climbing workouts. As long as the aerobic work doesn’t make you so tired you can’t keep up with the climbing workload, you’ll probably be ok, and yes it’ll help keep you light. But don’t expect to be a really competitive runner/rider unless you are particularly gifted, and even then you’re probably not reaching your full potential by doubling up.

Now, if you want to run/ride at a really competitive level...climbing is not in your best interest. These involve big volume training, and even rest days involve real active recovery, leaving little time for climbing. Plus both running and riding competitively really demand  being as light as possible, with low extraneous upper body weight...not real compatible with climbing IMO. My background...former Cat 2 bike racer, road and mtn, competed a few IM races...not pro level by any means, but from cat 4 racer on I really committed all time and energy into racing, and there was no way I could have spent energy focused on climbing, and I don’t think I was unique. Not to mention, changing from bike racer to climber involved a complete body shift...5’6” 127 lb twig from the waist up to 140lb with a lot more upper body mass.

I recommend ultras and bizarre trail events with no recognizable standards for time.  You don’t actually have to train and be fast, but the mileage will look impressive and satisfy most egos.  Next, go to Ten Sleep.  Train for moderate 11, tick 5.12.  3 days per week total, I’d estimate - no overload or recovery issues.  Ezpz, and very popular.

I do know multiple people who run marathons with decent time (placing in local competitions), and also climb 5.12-5.13.

But it sounds like you aren't actually looking to compete in running, that was a hyperbole at the end. If I understood your post right, you want to just be able to run long-distance, for pleasure, and to climb, also for pleasure. In which case -- yes, sure, even more possible.

It also sounds like running for 2-3 hours is something that you can already do, fairly easily and consistently, and you are curbing the running, because it affects your climbing, or you think it might affect your climbing? In which case, if your goal is to break into the new climbing grade, I would dedicate a solid 3-month training block to climbing training, and run only after climbing, for however long you feel like running, after you put in the effort into trying to climb hard. It would mean running no more than 3 days a week, and stopping, or toning down the intensity of the run, when you are tired. You can pick up the running training, and up the run intensity after the block of climbing training. Basically, something like this: 

Climb fresh on Tuesday, go for a run after climbing.
Rest Wednesday.
Climb fresh on Thursday, go for a run after climbing
Rest Friday
Climb fresh on Saturday
Climb easier stuff on Sunday. GO for a run after climbing on Sunday
Rest Monday.

All of the people I mentioned above don't run hard and climb hard ALL the time. They do more running when it's the off season for climbing, and they do more climbing when the conditions are perfect for climbing. They don't entirely stop either activity, but they prioritize one or the other, in blocks.

What stops you from climbing 12s right now? I haven't seen you in couple years, but I'm going to guess it's strength and power. So put in most of your climbing effort into limit bouldering, and max hangs on hangboard for at least 4 weeks, then substitute some power-endurance workouts instead of limit bouldering, and do more roped climbing.

Kind of beating a dead horse, but I'll share my anecdotal experience with  trying to perform in long distance running and rock climbing. Maybe you'll find it helpful (and I can humble brag). During the Winter/Spring of 2018-2019 I trained for a sub 3-hour marathon while also trying to push my climbing grades. It kind of worked, but ultimately I ended up with overuse injuries. 

My guiding principle for the marathon training was minimum effective dose, and weekends had to be free for climbing. I ran Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Monday was race pace, middle distance. Wednesday was speed work. Friday was long, slow distance with a race pace finish. This plan actually worked great for me and I ran a faster race than I expected (02:52:19). 

For climbing, I was getting some kind of climbing/climbing specific training in on Tuesday and/or Thursday and then climbing both weekend days. I managed to do one hard (for me) boulder (v9) during the marathon training period, and one challenging sport route (13-). I also climbed some multipitch routes that challenged me and onsighted a bunch. I also failed on my main sport climbing project (13b) for that season, ending my season on the route with a hurt shoulder. I felt like I was climbing well on anything that wasn't thuggy or too powerful.

After the shoulder injury, I stopped climbing altogether for a month leading up to the race. 

After the race and feeling successful, I kept pushing with the running and climbing and a few months later ended up with a hip/groin injury that led me to stop running altogether (though I have just started to run on trails again a little bit).

My takeaways...

While trying to balance running and climbing, I thought I was balancing them effectively. I was seeing some progress in both activities and felt strong and fast. However, after seeing the way my climbing improved after cutting the running altogether, I realize that I was putting a serious ceiling on my level in both activities. Turns out that trying to run fast for a long time is a poor way to recover from climbing hard, and vice-versa (at least for me at age 33). 

Running does not make you a better climber. Period. Especially long distance running. It eats up your recovery, and the energy-systems and muscular development from long distance running are irrelevant to climbing. Can it help condition you to move efficiently in the hills, sure, but this is ancillary to climbing well. (I could maaybe be convinced that short intervals have some tiny benefit for route climbing, but I don't think it's worth the time and energy resources.)

All that said, if you're not prioritizing finding your bouldering/route climbing or running/cardio endurance ceiling, then who cares? Going on long runs a couple times per week is fun, and for me, great for my attitude and outlook. If you're thoughftul about when you incorporate them into a week's activities, then they don't have to be too detrimental to your climbing progress, especially if you're not trying to get faster or go mega-distances. I do think it is possible to make progress in both activities at once, but realize that they do not support one another and your progress in both will be slower than it would be otherwise. 

You certainly don't need to be a world class athlete to race MTB and climb 5.12. Five years ago I was on that kick and was climbing that grade and winning/competitive in the sandbagged expert class of the local bike races. I'm just a schlub construction worker.

There were many times that I had to force myself to train, but it was interesting. I did find for myself however that I simply don't have the free time to step that up to say 5.13/pro class MTB at the same time. 

Go for it, climbing and bike racing are equally stupid and pointless.

Annie Climbs wrote:

also I want to add, whatever they say about some kinds of athletes having legs that are too big to be ideal for climbing….it’s a lie. My leg muscles from endurance mountain sports definitely help my climbing

Thanks for this, I was told that when training for steeper climbing (the area I’m in now) that you should drop leg muscle, hence my hesitation pursuing endurance sports like I used to. Though honestly, I never really bulked up doing endurance sports, if anything it was a struggle to keep weight on and I got pretty thin. 

Some more anecdotal evidence. Although I wasn't as good as Christian I still ran 1:07 for the half marathon and got 2nd overall at Cool 50K (the largest and maybe most competitive 50K in the US). During that time I struggled to climb higher than 5.9. I think I was just too tired and sore, and too skinny, from so much running.  

Stein Maus wrote:

Although I wasn't as good as Christian I still ran 1:07 for the half marathon and got 2nd overall at Cool 50K (the largest and maybe most competitive 50K in the US). 

Are we talking “modified” or USATF?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/sports/runner-christian-hesch-describes-doping-with-epo.html

Tradiban wrote:

Yes, I have met the benchmarks you describe while training for IMs. (Hawaii 2007   ) But everyone is different, your body may have different needs.

What distance? Care to elaborate on the training schedule? I started training for triathlons last year right before Covid, Covid was pretty much travel/climb year, but now that races are back up and running I’m trying to fit it into climbing

Emily Thompson wrote:

What distance? Care to elaborate on the training schedule? I started training for triathlons last year right before Covid, Covid was pretty much travel/climb year, but now that races are back up and running I’m trying to fit it into climbing

Full distance. That's all "IM" meant back in my day.

The secret to endurance training is to go long (duh), stay injury free (train weak muscle groups) and most importantly listen to your body to adjust the schedule as needed (rest).

The climbing was the fourth leg in my training with an emphasis on technique to be more efficient.

Everyone is different, find out what your body can handle and most importantly do what you like, if you hate the training you probably won't stick to it, adjust as necessary.

That's the gist, and stay away from fad training and gear, there are no shortcuts.

Emily Thompson wrote:

Thanks for this, I was told that when training for steeper climbing (the area I’m in now) that you should drop leg muscle, hence my hesitation pursuing endurance sports like I used to. Though honestly, I never really bulked up doing endurance sports, if anything it was a struggle to keep weight on and I got pretty thin. 

I'd say don't worry about it. Dropping leg muscle is one way to get better at steeper climbing, but learning the techniques of steeper climbing will pay dividends way faster. Beyond simple movement techniques, I think number one for this is pacing and tactics. A lot of climbers I know have only one speed (slow). 

I'd say number 2 is body tension. Initiating moves on overhanging rock and staying rooted through your feet requires posterior kinetic chain coordination and power, which lower body sports may actually enhance (if this is a weakness).

jake renfree wrote:

Just ask Hobbs Kessler

You may have missed the part where I said “not a world-class athlete”. Last I checked he went pro out of high school. By the time he is my age he won’t be pro. 

Emily Thompson wrote:

You may have missed the part where I said “not a world-class athlete”. Last I checked he went pro out of high school. By the time he is my age he won’t be pro. 

Yep I did miss that

James W wrote:

Are we talking “modified” or USATF?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/sports/runner-christian-hesch-describes-doping-with-epo.html

Me? Clean. 

Emily, sorry, didn't mean to high jack your thread - which is an interesting one.