How safe (in your opinion) is top rope solo?

Where I climb at Taylor's falls, it's less risky than normal TR, my setup has redundancy to the ground for now, as I climb on two strands. This may change as I get more comfortable. Petzl Basic (old style) and a CT roll 'n lock as my second.

I think the smattering of answers above give a pretty good overview. I TR solo, and I feel that it's safe in terms of catching falls, but I don't always 'feel' safe when I'm climbing. That is, when it's only you out there and your life depends SOLELY on your own capacity to triple check your system and gear, there can be a feeling of "Shit, did I do this right? Let me check again." So usually my first few climbs during TR solo are kinda sketchy feeling. I'm usually pretty nervous and constantly checking my situation. After a while though, once my brain believes that my system is safe and sound, then I start to enjoy myself and the awesome benefits of TR solo. 

I would also add that it's route/crag dependent. There's one crag I go to that feels super safe for TR solo, and I really enjoy myself and try hard things. Another crag I go to feels quite sketchy, and I never feel at ease b/c of the position of the holds and the anchor, etc. 

rockhard wrote:

I don't agree with this at all. For one your relying on a mechanical device to catch you. Even with backups the recent shunt story comes to mind. Two the rope is in one position for the top rope, so if you messed up any rebelays and its going over an edge the rope has more potential to cut. Three there are no partner checks and no one else is around if you f up

My opinion is that you are are mis-applying risks where they don’t necessarily apply.  I agree with Max.  For me, TRS is much safer.  Your stated “risks” are accounted for and corrected.  If you are used to risky endeavors you are used to meticulously following checklists, using the best equipment, having double or triple redundancy, and having emergency plans, and being self sufficient in executing those plans.  

It always surprises me how many people go out with partners, are surprised to actually need to use their belay device (to catch a fall) and then have no clue what to do next except call for help.

I’d say on “average”,  TRS practitioners are more experienced and self-sufficient than the “average” partner team, and thus less likely to have a significant issue.   Exceptions always apply, but I’d wager the center of the bell curve of TRS is skewed to less risk vs average climber 

I started using a TR solo set up about 4 years ago, and do so regularly. I use a single static line/micro traxion setup as outlined by Petzl, with the only deviation being that I use a Wild Country Rope Man 2 as my secondary device. I usually climb a few feet up and test hang before getting into a climb. This is after double/triple checking everything. I think TR soloing and climbing with a partner each have their own individual risk profiles that can vary from climb to climb. That said I can see the climbing alone consideration being perhaps the hardest thing to mitigate for, given that you're taking a key piece of redundancy out of the system.

J C wrote:

So on the spectrum of gym top roping to free solo projecting, how safe do you think top rope soloing is, in a general sense?

From a strictly personal perspective, I turn this question into a ranking styles of climbing relative to how hard I’ll push my climbing on each. Ranked in decreasing levels of difficulty …

1. top-rope belay 
2. leading sport (“safely” bolted)
3. top-rope soloing 
4. trad lead
5. rope soloing on lead
6. free solo

My camp lift has failed me twice…fortunately I had a micro and a knot below. I can create a video when I get home but the issue is if you fall onto it on the uncam side, the rope can pinch the cam open then speed through the device. I like overhangs and tr soloing anything overhanging is just not worth it.

I have not handled a Lift, but I will look more closely at photos to understand that failure mode. Personally, I don't feel good about non-toothed ascenders. Used to use a Duck myself, and that thing was sketch. I much prefer dying of shredded rope sheath, like all the MP threads proclaim lol.

For all the toothed ascender fear, it seems like the issues are mostly with non-toothed devices.

One thing is for sure, if you die while TRS, you are the cause of your own demise, full stop. Can't blame the device. Can't blame the instructions. Can't blame objective hazards. Can't blame a partner. Can't even blame yourself how whacked is that? Completely. Whacked as a New Jersey waste disposal company.

You have to be able to evaluate all of your choices, on your own. The biggest issue are the risks we take of which we are entirely unaware - see the Shunt failure thread. You have to figure this shit out for yourself, 100%, every time.

A friend of mine used to work with big city water works. Part of that job entailed working with chlorine gas, an environment where any mistake or mechanical failure could equal certain death. the redundancy built into their workflows is designed to minimize the risk. Committing your life to a top rope solo capture device is similar, and you should have some level of redundancy and you need to have your procedures down pat and consisent. 

I like that scottish dude and his videos but I think he is fucking nuts to use a shunt with his "instinctive" arm waving advice. That's bullshit.

J C wrote:

 Used to use a Duck myself, and that thing was sketch. 

Why do you think the Duck is sketchy? I've used one for ~4 years (with a microtrax below it) and haven't had any issues. Would be good to know of potential failure modes or issues others have had though.

Re the Duck, and forgive my ignorance for the question: the little pull cord for the cam... can that catch on something in a fall, and pull the cam open?

A V wrote:

As a camp lift + trax system user - I am curious to see this. Do you have your lift attached to shoulder sling/chest harness via bungee cord so that it glides up the rope next to you?

Yeah I make a chest harness with webbing and attach the chest harness through my hard points so if I fall the weight is on my hips but so the lift is oriented with my chest.

Attach a rope and let it hang free, orient the lift slightly off axis like 15 degrees, eventually the rope will try to run around the cam rather than straight through the device. When it does this it reverses the direction as if you fall. The rope will be around the cam, keeping the device open as it slides down the rope, I can make a video in a few days when I get home if I can find my lift. I think I dropped it, and didn’t even care it was gone.

Andrew P wrote:

Why do you think the Duck is sketchy? I've used one for ~4 years (with a microtrax below it) and haven't had any issues. Would be good to know of potential failure modes or issues others have had though.

My issues with the Duck were/are:

Won't grab on a tensioned rope-- I have tried jugging with it as my top ascender, and with that rope on that day it didn't work. Admittedly not a TRS scenario, but I don't know what the cutoff is between grabbing and not grabbing, so I don't trust is as much now. 

Device interference-- I believe the Duck and RnL both exhibit the failure mode where a Trax below will disengage the cam. Hope you use chest harness shenanigans Andrew. Yann Camus has a video showing this failure mode. Plenty of mitigation strategies if you want to use it though.

The little loop of cord-- as mentioned, I always wonder if this would snag something enough to disengage. Easy enough to remove, and add back later if you regret it.

I was very happy to replace my Duck with a Spoc, but I think it can be safely used, especially if you're willing to faff with neck loop/chest harness. I personally would not want it as my backup device, because I'm not confident in how it grabs. Two pulleys also give less friction, and most of my TRS is following on lead solo multipitch, so I can't weight the rope to make it feed better.

Andrew P wrote:

Why do you think the Duck is sketchy? I've used one for ~4 years (with a microtrax below it) and haven't had any issues. Would be good to know of potential failure modes or issues others have had though.

contributing to the thread drift lol... I use a Duck on a dogbone w/elastic neck loop over microtrax, but am considering moving to a different device.  I don't love the exposed cam on the duck - never actually had a problem but I can envision it catching on a ledge or bulge and not being able to pinch the rope instantly. I also question what the cam would do to the rope in a big fall (I am pretty cautious about not letting any slack build up so about all I've ever done is sag back onto the device, zero free fall). Would also be nice to have something that feeds with a little less drag on the rope. But it works and feels plenty safe for the way I use it.

I snipped the loop, never needed it and as Cherokee points out I also felt like it might be able to catch on something.

With a 10mm static rope (good anchor and rope protection if needed), Lift, Microtraxion, and the occasional back-up knot, I'd say the biggest risk is switching to a grigri for the rappel... On short routes, I make the anchor point in the middle of the rope and have a dedicated rappel line.

Ode to Petzl.
Top Rope Soloing, if Petzl didn't exist, would not be safe enough for me. Gladly, Petzl does exist and produces suitable devices for it. Thier devices aside, their contribution is huge in terms of safety, through a set of illustrated instructions (to get you started) as well as tech tips and research data (to fine tune as you progress or even regress).
I know there has sadly just been a TRS accident using a Petzl Shunt. Yes, this is a Petzl device, but Petzl tells you not to use it for that purpose, not to mention all of their information about backup devices, how to pair them, ropes and how to stop unwanted interactions between all of these components. Take Petzl out of the picture and you're left non-verifiable chatter.

I still worry about what happens if I need rescuing. There are some things which can be mitigated for regarding rescue, but many sadly not.

Trango Cinch above a Microtraxion. Safer than driving to the Crags.

Regarding the Duck: 

I think I will cut off that little loop of cord. I've never had any issues with it getting caught on anything, but also I've never used it. May as well chop it off and not have to worry about it. 

I use a neck/chest harness to hold up the duck, with the microtrax below. It usually feeds quite well, although I always weight the bottom of the rope to held it feed smoothly. I've never had any issues with the Duck not catching or being disengaged by the microtrax - although like M Wolf, I am always very careful to make sure no slack builds up. 

To answer the original question - I think tope rope soloing is very safe, just as safe as top roping with a partner. To me the only downside is that I am solo, meaning that I don't have a partner to double check my setup and make sure I didn't make any stupid mistakes. Although I always weight the system before actually climbing to make sure it's actually working. However, when tope rope soloing I usually stick to pretty simple terrain - routes that aren't too overhanging and don't traverse much. I also usually am just climbing laps on routes and not lowering down to rework sections. So if you are trying to climb in more complex terrain or are trying to work sections of the route (transitioning between climbing and rappelling on route) I think it can become less safe because there are more opportunities to make mistakes. 

It's hard to say which is "safer" because there are confounding factors, as many have pointed out. 

In TR Solo, you don't have a partner, which can be safer because sometimes partners create risks:

•  dropping you when they're belaying
• lowering you off the end of the rope
• kicking rocks down on you
• taking you off belay
• convincing you to do something you might not be comfortable with
• cutting your rope while you dangle in a crevasse

But not having a partner increases other risks because having a partner can make you safer:

• A partner can double check your system, which can prevent the brain-fart type of accident that seems to kill a few auto-belay users and rappellers every year (e.g. failing to clip in, failing to clip both strands on an atc; rapping off wrong end)
•  availability to provide first aid and/or go for help in case of injury, medical emergency, bee attack, equipment failure
• Someone to talk through plans and systems and make sure what you're doing is a good idea and that your plan is solid

I feel pretty good about my system (mini-trax with double-gate anti-crossload carabiner plus micro-trax with a screwlock Gridlock; stretchy elastic neck thingy attached with a flimsy plastic carabiner I could break with my finger if I needed to). Meaning that I'm quite sure that if I set it up correctly, it's going to stop me from sliding down the rope. But those other risks of being alone are still present.

I think the state of climbing statistics is poor enough that we can't even answer very basic questions about what kind of climbing is "safer" than others. I think this means that the difference in safety between TRS and partnered climbing really comes down to the particular partners you have available, the objectives you're interested in, your particular belay setup, your TRS setup, and your experience, ingenuity, and ability to set up the system correctly EVERY SINGLE time.

Years ago I had one of these devices I bought after doing some Jingus back roping on on the Dent du Requin North Face I never ended up really using it but it was designed for lead and follow solo climbing the rope could not jump out of the device I eventually sold the thing and the chest harness it required apparently this device is no longer manufactured.

I taught myself to do it when I was a rookie with an old WC Ropeman and Petzl ascender, even managed to transition from climbing to rapping mid-pitch a few times. (Maybe jugging the remainder of the route is better, but sometimes topout sucks?). Idk how “safe” it was, but it didn’t seem scary at all.