PAS and Tethers. Where to attachment, and what's good ettequite?

I see an increasing number of climbers attaching their PAS to their belay loop and leaving it attached for the duration of their at the belay.

Regarding where to attach: I always understood that the belay loop was holy. That's where your cherished partner get belayed from and you yourself during the rappel.  So don't attach soft repeatedly rubbing material, instead only hard material like carabiners  to avoid premature wear and the shortening of your harness' life span. Hardpoints are the place, not loop. Also, if tethered using a PAS at a belay while belaying at the same time, the belay device may become unpredictably if the PAS is suddenly loaded as they share the belay loop.

Regarding when to attach: only on arrival at, and, if needed during departure from the belay. That's it. In between, clove hitch the rope to the master point. Most PAS are static (exceptions: Beal Dynaloop, Petzl Jane, Climbing Technology Alp Loop, DIY stuff), so even a short fall on a bad anchor, could be bad for the whole party.

Has this advice changed? The PAS I see are on the belay loop and left clipped.  

It makes some climbers feel comfy to have a PAS or tether always at the ready, and many new climbers don’t know or trust the clove hitch. I like to keep mine racked until the rappels. 

I don't personally climb with a PAS, but the value I see in it is to speed up transitions. Sure a clove hitch is fast, but PAS is probably marginally faster, especially when following where tying the clove is slightly slower. It is also going to be a lot faster for new climbers who might faf around with a clove for a bit.

The belayer shouldn't be climbing above the anchor, so the fact that it is static is a touch moot. I rap with dyneema slings girth hitched to my harness. The PAS will be strictly better than that. Maybe you could argue that in an emergency situation they would be less mobile, but they could get on a clove pretty quickly.

As for belay loop vs hard points, your belay loop is redundant (if you look, the nylon is sewn back on itself and loops around 2x, 3x at the stitching). As long as you periodically check the girth hitch point (there is a pretty well known fatality around this) you are fine. I need to replace my harnesses due to wear on the hard points anyways, so I doubt the extra wear/tear on the belay loop would affect the harness lifespan for most.

The ideal situation is one where the climber can remain attached via a dynamic system at all times, via a clove to the anchor, dynamic tether, or whatever.

However, this is not always possible (ex. rappel anchors, cleaning small bolt anchors, etc.), and so a PAS or sling is used. Again, a dynamic tether is ideal, but not always used.

So people will have their PAS ready to go on their belay loop (which is redundant) in order to speed up transitions and not have to unspool, hitch, and extend it for every use. People are also fairly lazy, so leaving it in place is common.

Is it ideal (to leave it constantly on your loop)? No.

Is it being taught that way? Also no.

But people text and drive so... it is what it is.

Edit: people make poor/lazy decisions of both great and minor effect all the time, so the same can be expected in climbing 

The instructions from Petzl describe attaching the Petzl Connect to the belay loop with a girth hitch.  I think the others still describe using the hard points.  I don't typically climb with a PAS unless I'm spending more time at anchors than actually climbing (like when I'm rapping multiple pitches).

got a PAS through hard points at all times, one locker through first three loops always kept on second left gear loop and it's always at the ready

btw it's best to buy a dynamic PAS

Ben Podborski wrote:

The ideal situation is one where the climber can remain attached via a dynamic system at all times, via a clove to the anchor, dynamic tether, or whatever.

However, this is not always possible (ex. rappel anchors, cleaning small bolt anchors, etc.), and so a PAS or sling is used. Again, a dynamic tether is ideal, but not always used.

So people will have their PAS ready to go on their belay loop (which is redundant) in order to speed up transitions and not have to unspool, hitch, and extend it for every use. People are also fairly lazy, so leaving it in place is common.

Is it ideal? No.

Is it being taught that way? Also no.

But people text and drive so... it is what it is. 

Girth hitching a PAS to your belay loop and keeping it there permanently is not a fair comparison to texting and driving.  It is unlikely that anyone has ever been killed by the former, while I presume the latter has become a significant contributor to auto accidents and deaths.

It's really a non-issue.  

Attaching to your belay loop is fine as long as you don't leave it on there for months on end. Anything attached to my belay loop gets removed  every time I go to lead something again b/c I don't want it in the way, so I am not worried about repeated wear in the same place.

I don't use a PAS, I just clove to the anchor 99% of the time. When I need to rap I take a double length sling, throw in an eight/overhand on a bight to shorten it, girth to belay loop, rap extension good to go. Throw a locker in the end and you also have a tether for for the next rap station. Easy, quick, and the sling is still useful for things other than tethering yourself to anchors. 

When I am sport climbing/single pitching and I know I will be cleaning the anchor I will usually pre attach a sling to my belay loop with a locker on the end so I can tether as soon as I get to the anchor for a quick clean. Sometimes I will just use a couple quickdraws instead. You can clean most bolted anchors without ever going off belay, so if you are at a good stance at the anchor you don't even need a tether.

Jason Kim wrote:

Girth hitching a PAS to your belay loop and keeping it there permanently is not a fair comparison to texting and driving.  It is unlikely that anyone has ever been killed by the former, while I presume the latter has become a significant contributor to auto accidents and deaths.

It's really a non-issue.  

Todd Skinner's belay loop may have failed due to a slings being girth hitched to it for a long period of time. I don't remember if the accident report stated that as the official cause, but it certainly could have contributed. But also his harness was very old and worn and probably needed to be replaced regardless of the sling wearing on his belay loop

If you are asking about wearing a PAS on your belay loop vs hard points, you don't need to worry about harness wear. 

Also this whole "dynamic" tether nonsense is basically just a marketing ploy. Just don't take FF2 whips onto the anchor lol. 

I always have mine through my hard points. Makes it easier for me to clean anchors when the person who was thinking about climbing a route after me decides they are done after I leave the ground; in addition to some of the scenarios described above. Barely notice it is there and it’s a piece of equipment I don’t mind hauling up every route.

If it’s a well built anchor how would any reasonable fall from a belay result in bad news for the entire party? I can’t see a scenario where I’m anchored at a belay and fall more than a foot. So that would less than a factor one fall(?).  Your kidneys would hurt but I don’t see how that would be dangerous. 

Does anyone know of an accident report that directly points to a PAS girth hitched on a belay loop? There's enough people climbing that if something is dangerous it seems like it should show up in one or more accident reports.

B G wrote:

Does anyone know of an accident report that directly points to a PAS girth hitched on a belay loop? There's enough people climbing that if something is dangerous it seems like it should show up in one or more accident reports.

Famous accident here:

https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/

obvious neglect in this instance. 

Isaac Mauro wrote:

< regardless of the sling wearing on his belay loop >

To be more specific, I don't think that's it's a case of the girth-hitched sling/PAS/whatever wearing on the belay loop when under load; it's the legloops sawing on the bottom of the belay loop that can do the damage. And if the loaded sling etc is always girth-hitched to the same bit of the belay loop, then the legloop-inflicted damage will always be concentrated on the same short section at the bottom of the belay loop. So it's a more immediate concern when the girth-hitched item is, for instance, a slung fifi while aid climbing than when it's a personal tether when [possibly] standing on a ledge. Using a tether while threading a sport lower-off with no ledge and some level of moving about would generally lie somewhere between those two extremes.

Ben M wrote:

Famous accident here:

https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/

obvious neglect in this instance. 

Wow, thanks for sharing. Brief but clear write-up. 

Noel Z wrote:

Regarding where to attach: I always understood that the belay loop was holy. That's where your cherished partner get belayed from and you yourself during the rappel.  So don't attach soft repeatedly rubbing material, instead only hard material like carabiners  to avoid premature wear and the shortening of your harness' life span. 

1) No, the belay loop is not "holy."  It is a full-strength attachment point on your harness, good for a variety of uses, including attachment of a PAS per manufacturer's instructions.

2) No, this has nothing to do with etiquette, but rather a matter of personal preference (unless I'm for some reason I'm wearing YOUR harness and attaching my PAS to it I guess)

3) Most importantly, it seems weird how much this bothers you.  No one is forcing you to do it, nor does it impact you in any way.

I was belayed once by someone using a Smart from a hanging belay on a multipitch. About 5 meters out from the belay, he as if he know why his Smart wasn't working correctly. He was attached with a PAS to his belay loop and it was pulled tightly and somehow interfering with how the Smart rotated. He then attached the rope, which was attached to his hard points, and that solved the problem. Now I see more PAS at crags and attached to belay loops, as some manufacturers state, and I'm wondering if they don't interfere with some devices if one hangs on them.

Jason Kim wrote:

Girth hitching a PAS to your belay loop and keeping it there permanently is not a fair comparison to texting and driving.  It is unlikely that anyone has ever been killed by the former, while I presume the latter has become a significant contributor to auto accidents and deaths.

It's really a non-issue.  

I was merely making an example of non-ideal decisions, not a direct comparison 

Hmm, I always go with hard points for my PAS, since it leaves the belay loop free for... belaying. Metolius shows that in their instructions like others have said above, and it works for me. Personally the accident above has made me leery of putting anything permanently on my belay loop, though I also realize a visual inspection will probably reveal wear before it becomes dangerous.

Ben M wrote:

Famous accident here:

https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/

obvious neglect in this instance. 

The lesson here is not don't girth hitch slings, despite what a bunch of gumbies think. 

The lesson is inspect gear periodically. 

Hmm, I've never heard of switching your attachment between a (static) PAS and cloves either - I understand why you'd do that on sketchy anchors I suppose. I'm usually on good ones (so far...) and I try not to have a big loop of slack in my static tether while hanging out on an anchor.