What I Should Have Said About Joe Kinder

Lee Chandler wrote:

Companies hire people to market and represent their brand through sponsorships etc, what are they suppose to do when those people are no longer marketable? 

Nail on the head. This is pretty pathetic even for AB's low standard. I won't even comment on the JK controversy other than to say that the climbing market has expanded and evolved quite a bit over the last 20 years & you can't expect to keep your MO and collect the same paycheck. Blame the woke culture or whatever is entirely missing the point.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

Are you saying there is point in redemption?  Can you elaborate?  

I can't comprehend what you're asking. "Are you saying there is [a] point in redemption?"

To elaborate... his friends already made the choice to save themselves from scrutiny for all of the fun they had together about the same material Joe was canned over. If they were friends, all of the guys in the "text thread" should have joined with Joe, and made it right, to Sasha and the public. Bailing on their buddy is what im referring to.  

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Generally I am anti cancel culture and Joe should not have lost all his sponsor money, maybe a 40% reduction would have been fine? The issue I have with this specific take is that it didn't really mention any more meaningful amends that Joe attempted to make than the Instagram apology.  Bishart tries to frame this as one incident and I recall reading that Joe was dick to two people and it was more than just a single post.  If someone says one bad thing to one person, an apology seems adequate. This seems like Joe said multiple bad things, therefore he needs to make a larger effort to make amends. Partially cancelling Joe seems like it would have been best.

I really feel like "cancel" is such a copout, dude was fired. If you or I had a secret social media bullying our coworkers I bet your employer would 'cancel' you too. His job was literally to be a good influence and bring positive media attention to the brands. If he can't do that he doesn't deserve sponsorship. The guy is a lightning rod for bad press right now because he couldn't self-regulate his behavior, the whole actions have consequences thing.

R K wrote:

Who tf is Joe Kinder? 

Here's the locked MP thread. Most of the pertinent visuals were deleted, but, you can get the general drift.

So many people in that thread, gone now!

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114336179/bd-joe-kinder

I don't much care what Bisharat says he should have said, sheesh, kinda way too late now, unless it's something to do with the Days of Awe leading up to Yom Kippur? This is, after all, posted on Rosh Hashanah, with a tradition of casting away regrets, and trying to make good on your messups for the past year ahead of the day of reckoning.

But I doubt it. 

H.

James Woods wrote:

If Bisharat is canceled, can we please get a lifestyle-athlete, one of those sponsored 5.8 climbers who are really pushing the limits the sport, to write his column? We all need to know what new pants to wear bouldering this fall.

Or whatever fuckin ginseng product you need in order to align your chakras. 

i can forgive the dude but i can’t write him a check for 35k to be a climber. Alas. 

The message is now loud and clear.  Even if you take the "high road' or "do what's right" and apologize they will not forgive you and still try to get you fired.  If they cared about people, as is the claim, then they would forgive. The pitchfork mob does not care.  They want blood.  Do not give them what they want.  Move on.  Don't apologize to a bunch of Hyenas, Ever.  Only apologize to the person you hurt, privately, and only if you're sincere.  You don't owe the rest of us anything.  

I took a shit in the desert once and I buried it instead of packing it out.  

Balls in your court, Kinder. 

J Lind wrote:

The message is now loud and clear.  Even if you take the "high road' or "do what's right" and apologize they will not forgive you and still try to get you fired.  If they cared about people, as is the claim, then they would forgive. The pitchfork mob does not care.  They want blood.  Do not give them what they want.  Move on.  Don't apologize to a bunch of Hyenas, Ever.  Only apologize to the person you hurt, privately, and only if you're sincere.  You don't owe the rest of us anything.  

You missed the part, pointed out multiple times in this thread, where said person he hurt reached out privately, and he ignored her. No one canceled him. He simply got himself fired for being shitty.

Their ships sailed a long time ago. Oh the travails of pro climbers and their symbiotic commentators... like sands through an hourglass, these are the days of our lives...

Ben Silver wrote:

You missed the part, pointed out multiple times in this thread, where said person he hurt reached out privately, and he ignored her. No one canceled him. He simply got himself fired for being shitty.

I wrote a whole response to you and MP deleted it. Anyway, I can't find any proof of this actually being the case. In fact the article that is most anti-joe acknowledges he did apologize. If we are going to broadly talk about internet bullying, I assume you are always anti internet bully? For some reason I never see you call out anyone in the shuan threads(you even commented in this thread like WTF), or moab thread or really any thread where people are being bullies to one another. So at the very least if you believe a full cancellation is warranted for Joe you should extend some effort to MP users. 

Secondly, my issues with cancel culture is the punishment. In this case either Joe would have gotten away scott free or he losses his whole career. Neither of these seem appropriate for this situation. People keep saying he was fired but he lost his career and likely was ostracized by the climbing community. In most work places if you had an isolated incident where you called someone fat, you would probably be sent to sensitivity training. 

Third firing him was not the correct solution. His sponsor could have turned this around. Required Joe to go to anti-bullying support groups make him acknowledge his wrong doings and show that he and the world can do better. They could have made him help Sasha with one of her causes. Instead the sponsors lost, Sasha lost, and Joe lost. I would rather live in a world that allows for redemption so I guess should Joe be banned for life or can you forgive humans?

" either Joe would have gotten away scott free or he loses his whole career"

Some careers are like that and getting caught doing the thing you shouldn't is a real occupational hazard. If you're the public face of a brand and you damage in any way that brand's reputation, you are not doing the one thing they asked you to do. So game over. I doubt there's a shortage of people wanting to become pro climbers, whatever that means, so he's easily replaced. And I haven't heard reports of JK having to sell encyclopedias door to door as a punishment. So maybe things have worked out in the end?

What's Joey up to now? Has he found success elsewhere?

Nick Rhodes wrote:

What's Joey up to now? Has he found success elsewhere?

Yea he successfully bolts a shit ton of awesome routes, usually out of his own pocket.  

Come down to southern Utah, Nevada border area and check em out. 

To paraphrase TBL: Fuck it, Dude, let’s go climbing.

Dan Cooksey wrote:

Yea he successfully bolts a shit ton of awesome routes, usually out of his own pocket.  

Come down to southern Utah, Nevada border area and check em out. 

Yes, but how does he get paid?

Did SDG apologize to the female production assistant that she to/about (paraphrazing) "Aren't you too fat to be doing this job?"  At least Joe actually contributes to real-world climbing, versus being a climbing "influencer" who just shows up for some Red Bull footage on whatever crag/route someone else put the effort into developing.  

Everyone following that Instagram acct should have been disciplined or fired.  Unfortunately Sasha made herself unfirable - but temporarily it seems.  I don’t see her on BD’s site.  She lists Petzl as a sponsor on her website, but she’s not on Petzl’s site as a member of their climbing team either.  Bunch of little brats.

James W wrote:

Everyone following that Instagram acct should have been disciplined or fired.  Unfortunately Sasha made herself unfirable - but temporarily it seems.  I don’t see her on BD’s site.  She lists Petzl as a sponsor on her website, but she’s not on Petzl’s site as a member of their climbing team either.  Bunch of little brats.

They both suck in this instance. At least Joe's transgressions are public (as in 2?), whereas SDG's are numerous and unknown (being a bitch to Babsi, Eiger shit, potentially starting this whole feud with Joe and then getting him fired over it all).