Bowline with doubled up rope?

Hi everyone, 

I was wondering whether it is safe/acceptable to tie a bowline using rope that’s doubled up? I’m trying to tie around a tree so don’t think I could use a bowline on a bight. Further, can most if not all knots be tied with doubled up rope? 

I don't see why not...I'd make sure to leave enough of a 'tail' (ie loop) so that you can tie that off too as you would a regular bowline. 

If you're trying to anchor yourself to a large tree using the rope, consider a Connecticut hitch instead. Much easier to tie. 

@Oliver, this is very common practice. Just make sure that you secure the end (the bite) with a double overhand or a few half hitches and then clip it back to something.

https://climbingtechniques.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/how-to-set-up-a-top-rope-with-a-static-line/

Math Bert wrote:

If you're trying to anchor yourself to a large tree using the rope, consider a Connecticut hitch instead. Much easier to tie. 

Slick!

The answer to both question is yes, all the time. Just add "on a bight" to the name of your knot and google that. You'll see tons of examples of how to secure the loop at the end. 

If you're looking for.help with a specific scenario, perhaps give some more details on what you're trying to do. 

Math Bert wrote:

If you're trying to anchor yourself to a large tree using the rope, consider a Connecticut hitch instead. Much easier to tie. 

And a fatal disaster if you clip the toggle carabiner through incorrectly.

Please use a runner- you can clearly see the damage already done to that tree. 

Guy Keesee wrote:

Please use a runner- you can clearly see the damage already done to that tree. 

Yup. All of those pictures of various ways to ruin a perfectly good tree are sad. Use a length of 1" tubular webbing tied as a loop around the tree, Just a loop tied with a water knot knot (ring bend), as opposed to any kind of hitch or whatever. Leave it behind for the next party, who can decide, when the time comes, to replace it or use it it.

I've got forty years of climbing under my belt, up to 5.13 trad, and never once have I ever needed to worry about tying off a tree in such fashions.

Twenty years ago I would never had suggested this, but a popular route using a tree for an anchor needs a bolted anchor to save the tree.

Cheers, Kris 

Gunks experience is that slings either groove like the picture or else more smoothly but just as badly abrade away the bark.  But it is unusual to see a groove completely encircle the tree as in the picture.  It makes me wonder whether there was originally a tight sling that the tree started to grow around and then someone cut the sling off.  

Personally, I think the rope tie-in pictured is a better way to fix a line for, say, top-rope soloing. Slings left are eyesores, can deteriorate dangerously, may encourage people to create two-way traffic on routes by interpreting the sling as some kind of official rappel anchor, and when several trees are adequate, concentrate all the wear on just one. To mitigate bark damage, use some type of padding (eg a length of old garden hose) between the sling or the rope tie-in and the tree.

Bolts might be called for. But if they are placed near the tree as is too often the case, the erosion and soil compaction caused by climbing parties will kill the tree anyway, unless it is rooted in soils in cracks that are out of reach of climber footfalls.

Hello Oliver, just answering your questions...

I was wondering whether it is safe/acceptable to tie a bowline using rope that’s doubled up?

Yes - you can. Although when you use the descriptor 'Bowline' - I'm not sure exactly which 'Bowline' you mean?

There are many different 'Bowlines'. Many people type 'Bowline' as if there is only one type of Bowline.

I’m trying to tie around a tree so don’t think I could use a bowline on a bight.

The Bowline on a bight (#1080) can be tied around around a tree...just like it can be used as a tie-in knot to a climbers harness!
I have a feeling you might have meant to type; "I want to tie a Bowline on a bight around a tree, but without access to either end of the rope".

If this is what you actually meant - then you are correct. You can't tie a Bowline on a bight around a tree unless you have access to at least one end of the rope!

The image at post #4 from Jeremy, is a Triple Bowline. You don't need access to an end of the rope to tie that particular knot around a tree.

Further, can most if not all knots be tied with doubled up rope?

Yes - you can tie all knots as a doubled version of itself.(see images below for just 2 examples).
Also, just to add some more info - all knots have a mirror version of themselves. Tie any knot and then hold it adjacent to a plane mirror. The reflection you see is the inverse - and its equally valid.

//////////////////////////////////////////

Does anyone know of testing conducted on carabiners with fulcrum forces in this manner, or in a biner block rappel?

HOWNOT2 tested them over an edge, not the same scenario, but the closest I know of.

The same general situation applies to carabiners employed in manual braking devices rigged in 'guide mode'. The rope(s) are directly bearing on the spine of the carabiner. Also, a carabiner brake for abseiling/rappelling also puts force on the spine of a carabiner.
The hitch mentioned in a previous post is employing a carabiner as a 'closed toggle'. An 'open toggle' is a rod or spike - which can be rigged for quick release.
The issue with these types of toggled hitches is the loading profile - they tend to be more effective when loaded on a horizontal host - and not as effective when loaded on a longitudinal host..

Math Bert wrote:

If you're trying to anchor yourself to a large tree using the rope, consider a Connecticut hitch instead. Much easier to tie. 

so great !

rgold wrote:

And a fatal disaster if you clip the toggle carabiner through incorrectly.

My partner and I call that the Connecticut Death Hitch

Andy Eiter wrote:

My partner and I call that the Connecticut Death Hitch

Seems like it would be a very easy thing to check, if the biner is not clipped in the right way the hitch will simply pull apart. Are people using it without doing a simple tug test? It's not like this is something that's deceptively hard to tie.

I’ve been climbing on running bowlines on a bight for tree work for years now. It’s super safe and extremely easy to tie/untie. Look up the slip knot transforming into a running bowline technique, it’s really fast and you don’t need dexterity to . I don’t do anything for a backup other than a figure 8 knot.

I’ll take a picture at the next job if I end up using it.

aikibujin wrote:

Seems like it would be a very easy thing to check, if the biner is not clipped in the right way the hitch will simply pull apart. Are people using it without doing a simple tug test? It's not like this is something that's deceptively hard to tie.

It's not deceptively hard to tie/toggle, but it is deceptively easy to tie/toggle wrong. I use it and always triple check it. 

Thanks everyone for the responses! Yes, I suppose I did mean triple bowline. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the other great ideas everyone. 

Timber hitch and cow hitches are also excellent options that are very easy to tie/untie 

I don’t think a triple bowline is what you’re asking about. There’s so many different bowlines with marginally differing names...

aikibujin wrote:

Seems like it would be a very easy thing to check, if the biner is not clipped in the right way the hitch will simply pull apart. Are people using it without doing a simple tug test? It's not like this is something that's deceptively hard to tie.

It is easy to check---if you remember to check it---but you only have to forget, be distracted, or misperceive the configuration once.  And it may not immediately pull apart when incorrectly implemented, as the carabiner might function as a toggle for a while before rotating and coming free, so you'd better do more than a peremptory tug. I think the way one sets it up, the most natural thing is to do it wrong, because you push two strands through the bight that has been wrapped, and it seems natural to then clip those strands to keep them from popping back out.  Wrong!  Hold the loops you pushed through with one hand and clip the other two strands with the carabiner. I'd suggest practicing that a bunch of times so that you perform the correct procedure automatically.

All that said, I think it is absurd to use a method with a 50-50 chance of catastrophic failure when it takes no more time to, say, lay on two half hitches in the form of a buntline hitch and have a connection with almost zero probability of failure and no carabiner involvement at all. Or any of several other knots, which add only seconds to the procedure and come with far greater security. There is no scenario on earth where the at most few seconds possibly saved by the Connecticut Hitch could make any difference in the outcome of an endeavor. I know it has been promoted by very respectable and widely-read guides, but, from a risk-benefit perspective, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

In any case, it's been promoted as a very quick tree anchor for a belayer, typically for some transitional situation where one has to pause briefly to belay. It is not a way to anchor a static line or top rope that isn't going to be attended---I've never heard anyone advocate it for that purpose.  And like the buntline hitch, it is a slip knot that girdles the bark, rather than an open loop that only pressures a part of the tree's circumference.

rgold wrote:

All that said, I think it is absurd to use a method with a 50-50 chance of catastrophic failure when it takes no more time to, say, lay on two half hitches in the form of a buntline hitch and have a connection with almost zero probability of failure and no carabiner involvement at all.  

Are you saying a properly tied Connecticut tree hitch has 50% chance of failure? That's obviously not a true so I don't think that's what you're saying. My guess the "50-50 chance of failure" is implying that people have a 50% chance of tying the CT hitch incorrectly, and an incorrectly tied CT hitch will fail. The second half of that sentence is definitely true, but it's also true for most knots. The first half of that sentence, implying people have a 50% chance of tying the CT hitch incorrectly, is questionable. Are we assuming people are tying the CT hitch based on probability and not their knowledge? "I'm going to flip a coin to decide which two strands I'm clipping"?

There are obviously many other ways to tie a rope around a tree, so I'm not arguing that everyone should use the CT hitch. What I do like about the CT hitch is that it's so simple and easy, I bet I can teach it to anyone much easier than a buntline hitch or many other hitches/knots. And the likelihood someone who knows this hitch will tie it incorrectly is getting exaggerated. 

It is easy to check---if you remember to check it---but you only have to forget, be distracted, or misperceive the configuration once.  And it may not immediately pull apart when incorrectly implemented, as the carabiner might function as a toggle for a while before rotating and coming free, so you'd better do more than a peremptory tug. I think the way one sets it up, the most natural thing is to do it wrong, because you push two strands through the bight that has been wrapped, and it seems natural to then clip those strands to keep them from popping back out.  Wrong!  Hold the loops you pushed through with one hand and clip the other two strands with the carabiner. I'd suggest practicing that a bunch of times so that you perform the correct procedure automatically.

The bold part can be said about any knots too, if you don't remember to check the knot/hitch, then it's entirely possible for the knot/hitch to fail.

I do agree that for anyone not familiar with the CT hitch, the tendency is to clip the two strands inside the bight. However, and this is true for any knot/hitch, people need to practice the right way to tie a knot/hitch. And it's as simple as it gets to practice tying the CT hitch. For anyone who wants to learn this hitch, play around with it a bit! You will quickly realize that clipping a carabiner to two strands of rope INSIDE a bight does nothing to keep the strands inside, the bight can simply loop around both the strands and carabiner. It will not take a genius to realize this. Then just make a mental note to NOT clip the two strands that are inside the bight, but instead clip the two strands that forms the bight. Once I made that mental note to myself, it has been a very easy hitch to remember.

Also I don't clip the carabiner with the spine against the two strands first. I turn the carabiner so the two clipped strands are at the narrow end of the biner. In this orientation, it's easy to see if the biner can slip through the hitch. A simple tug can confirm it. Or you can try to push the bight of rope around the biner by hand. If you can do that then obviously you tied it wrong. The simplicity of the CT hitch also makes it pretty simple to check.

I don't use the CT hitch often, but when I do, I find it easier to remember than many other knots/hitches. The likelihood of tying it incorrectly is exaggerated.