Bolts on Wind Ridge, Eldorado Canyon

I'm starting this thread to draw the bolt/anchor conversation away from the accident thread. Hopefully that thread can remain about collecting/reporting the facts of the incident, serve as a place the memorialize the deceased climber, and allow folks in the community to send their love and support to the surviving climber. 

Every time accident threads begin to drift toward discussion, analysis often turns into "analysis" and then arguing. Conversation about what to do moving forward are good, but maybe we can have that convo here instead of the accident thread. 

So if you've got thoughts about whether or not Wind Ridge should have a bolt (or bolted anchor) at the "cave" belay at the top of pitch 2, this is your Graceland. 

i think another peripheral question to ask is if there are any good places to put a bolted anchor up there. IIRC the alcove is pretty poor rock quality.

dsauerbrun wrote:

i think another peripheral question to ask is if there are any good places to put a bolted anchor up there. IIRC the alcove is pretty poor rock quality.

A 100mm glue-in bolt would likely be bomber.

What is the anchor situation up there? It's been a while, but I remember having something decent between P2 and 3 last time. I know there's a vertical crack above Breezy (not really helpful for Wind Ridge, I know), I think a big boulder you might sling, and a small cam placement near the funky flake thing on P3.

I wish I had a really detailed picture in front of me.

Edit: From a ground level picture on the route page, "Belay off boulder". I think that's what we used last time I was up there, a big boulder right under P3.

Climbed tagger yesterday, that entire alcove is pretty chossy. I rarely feel satisfied with the anchors that I build in that rotten band. Someone with more anchor knowledge than me could probably make something bomber, but honestly I think that if you intend to climb P3 of wind ridge an anchor below the ledge is a much safer bet. In the past I've used the holes in the rock for anchor placements as well. I think there's a pod for a 3, 0.5 and 0.4 cam, I have no idea how well the rock would stay together in a factor 2 fall in those pods but it is definitely not confidence inspiring, and they are not in an ideal location for the belay. 

There is a small boulder on the ledge that I have always used for the anchor. It's smaller than I'd like, but I've always felt it was sufficient.

IMO it's a giant boulder and more than sufficient, I've used it multiple times as an anchor.  That said, I have no problem with a bolted anchor being installed. Especially because it's not uncommon for more than one party to end up on that ledge simultaneously. 

There’s a formal review process for adding fixed hardware to (long) existing routes in Eldo. More info here: aceeldo.org/fixed-hardware/

I think it is very unlike that ACE would approve a bolt anchor at this location. From the ACE guidelines:

3.2. Applications Regarding Existing Routes. (a) Existing routes shall be maintained to the greatest extent possible in the condition of the First Free Ascent (FFA). Bold routes shall remain bold, safe routes shall remain safe. If good fixed protection existed for the FFA, such gear shall be maintained in its original position

3.7 Applications Regarding Rappel/Belay Anchors. (a) Applications to install new rappel or belay anchors shall be generally given favorable consideration when the new anchor replaces anchors on trees or other vegetation or where the anchor replaces visual eye sores, e.g., wads of slings attached to pitons, fixed nuts, and/or bolts. Applications to add anchors in the middle of existing pitches, i.e., anchors that make it easier to retreat before the traditional end of the pitch, shall be denied. Applications for new bolted belay anchors where good natural protection is available are discouraged and this is a factor against the application. The previous sentence does not apply to applications for rappel anchors.

How about just chain the slightly undersized belay boulder to the wall?  You couldn't  rap from it, but you would still have to sling it for the belay.

There is another thread discussing this and the more broader idea of making Eldo safer:

Here is what I posted in response to someone stating "that there are other bolted anchors in Eldo, why not on Wind Ridge".

The bolts you mention (Bastille and Calypso) are at the top of the first pitch of multi pitch routes.  They are rap anchors.  Walk off is not an option (unless you free solo).  People often do just the first pitch of these routes.   They not only serve as a way down for these routes, but also for routes nearby.   There are no bolts further up on these routes.  As you go higher you must build natural anchors.  Washington Irving is similar, but these anchors serve as the path of least resistance for descent for the climbs above.  It is a rap. The location in question on Wind Ridge is far too high for a rap with a single rope, not to mention there is a large ledge with an easy walk off that serves as a better option to prevent clogging up the route while rapping down.  

Furthermore, adding bolted anchors certainly dumbs down the route and the area.  This may entice more climbers without the needed experience to lead the route.  We've all seen the threads where the op is asking for trad routes with bolted anchors.  Why?  They lack the knowledge or experience to build natural anchors.  Well, I assert, if you are not competent at building anchors, you aren't qualified to lead a trad route, especially in Eldo.  Slinging a tree is one of the most basic anchors taught to beginners.  Slinging a boulder is not much different, which is one of the many options for a natural anchor on the second pitch of Wind Ridge.  

I believe Eldo's reputation is one if its best assets protecting against many more accidents.  Adding bolted anchors would just entice many more climbers not properly trained leading to more accidents.  Imagine how many more inexperienced climbers would show up if they knew Eldo had mostly bolted anchors.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121227909/making-eldorado-canyon-climbing-safer?page=2

Dale Remsburg posted a video showing his anchor setup at the ledge in question.

This route is about as well protected as it gets for a traditional climb - including the belay below P3 (huge boulder and decent crack in the back right of the "alcove" which had a fixed nut last time I climbed it). There is also bomber gear (nut placement and yellow totem if memory serves) at the crux in the big flake right off the deck. No need for any bolts in my opinion. 

Gregory H wrote:

Dale Remsburg posted a video showing his anchor setup at the ledge in question.

As corrected in the other thread, and explained in that post, this is not the same ledge.

ScoJo wrote:

As corrected in the other thread, and explained in that post, this is not the same ledge.

Incorrect. It IS the correct ledge.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTPRcYHFgHu/?utm_medium=copy_link

Mountain Rocketman wrote:

Incorrect. It IS the correct ledge.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTPRcYHFgHu/?utm_medium=copy_link

This is NOT the ledge atop p2 of wind ridge. Dale’s caption is a bit confusing but if you have climbed here you know this is a different spot. I don’t think he should have made this post referencing the accident but showing a different location as it has obviously confused people.

the boulders available to sling on that ledge are smaller than the one pictured and lay on the ground- they are not protruding flakes.

That aside, I don’t think bolts are the solution here. There are plenty of anchoring options including the boulders and cams/tricams in natural pockets. This route is climbed several times a day, every day. It is not by nature unsafe this was a horrible freak accident. There are lessons to learn from it but the lessons aren’t we gotta add bolts everywhere. 

Daniel Kay wrote:

This is NOT the ledge atop p2 of wind ridge. Dale’s caption is a bit confusing but if you have climbed here you know this is a different spot. I don’t think he should have made this post referencing the accident but showing a different location as it has obviously confused people.

the boulders available to sling on that ledge are smaller than the one pictured and lay on the ground- they are not protruding flakes.

That aside, I don’t think bolts are the solution here. There are plenty of anchoring options including the boulders and cams/tricams in natural pockets. This route is climbed several times a day, every day. It is not by nature unsafe this was a horrible freak accident. There are lessons to learn from it but the lessons aren’t we gotta add bolts everywhere. 

Jesus, lots of fake videos out there looking for likes.

Greg D wrote:

Furthermore, adding bolted anchors certainly dumbs down the route and the area. 

I love how most people in the community would rather see people die than 'dumb down the route and the area'. Where's your proof that this would happen? Man, climbers really are terrible, morally bankrupt people. 

Mountain Rocketman wrote:

Jesus, lots of fake videos out there looking for likes.

As with the accident, and all the threads discussing it, a little discernment and critical thinking would go a long way.

It is NOT the ledge, nor is it a “fake video”. It shows a relevant skill in a different location that could be used on wind ridge, and was published by a highly respected guide (who explains what it is!).

Ben B wrote:

I love how most people in the community would rather see people die than 'dumb down the route and the area'. Where's your proof that this would happen? Man, climbers really are terrible, morally bankrupt people. 

Well, for starters, the bolts added to Recon in Eldo.  A man fell 100+ feet to near death, still hasn't recovered 15 years later.  This was typically a multi pitch route.  They were treating it as single pitch.  Miscommunication was likely to blame.  I was part of the rescue.  That was a horrible day.

Another, only weeks after bolts are installed on Over The Hill area, a women was being lowered in typical sport fashion.  She was dropped because her rope was too short.  Leg injuries.  Many more examples abound.  

The notion that bolts will make climbing safe is just plain false.  If that were true, there wouldn't be dozen of injuries and deaths on sports routes every year.  Adding bolts certainly can make one feel safer.  But, that can be where the danger begins.  

If you truly don't want people to die climbing, you need to make it illegal.  No need to insult just because we disagree.   

Winter Soldier wrote:

Your argument is totally asinine. Airbags don't save everyone from dying in car accidents. So why use them? Because you do everything you can do stack the odds in your favor. 

If you cared at all about human life, you wouldn't be saying things like this. Morally bankrupt AND can't make a sound argument. 

If you (or anyone else) think the route needs bolts to be “safe”, I’ll happily take you up Wind Ridge and/or Tigger, show you anchors, how I do the routes, and talk through some of the considerations.  Send me a message. Maybe then you can show your friends, and we can prevent another accident.

If on the other hand you want to do everything to stack the odds in your favor, maybe don’t climb. I read somewhere that it’s inherently dangerous.