NYS licensed guide exam

Hi All!

I have been climbing for 6 years and teaching informally and decided to take the plunge and go for my guide cert in New York. I am taking the exam (which is written) in a few weeks and I was wondering if anyone has taken it or if they have some idea of what to study.

Any advice would be great!
Thanks

Jack

Which cert? The SPI? Rock Guide?

Edit: Who is administering the exam? The AMGA? New York state?

Written exam? They don't watch you actually do the skills they ask you to know?

Jack, Curious to hear these details as well.  I took the written coaches exam for New York State years ago, but I've never heard of a guiding exam administered by the state.  Fill us in with the details.

More than you want to know about the history of this New York State guide program:

Following a whitewater rafting accident in the mid-1980s that left some members of a bus tour injured and dead, New York State instituted a state-wide guide licensing requirement for most outdoor sports. Prior to this accident, the "guide" licensing was basically limited to hunting and fishing - the traditional Northeast guide, like a Maine Guide.. The implementation of this new licensing scheme included whitewater rafting, rock and ice climbing, etc. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation "DEC" (known in other states as something like "Fish & Game") was given the responsibility of setting up and administering the program. The DEC was initially given no additional funding by the state legislature to institute this new program.

The DEC contacted the Mohonk Preserve, the owner of the Gunks, since that entity had climbing and had already instituted (or was about to institute, I can't remember the exact timing) a requirement for climbing guides to have some form of certification. I was the person that established that guiding requirement at the Gunks - guides operating on the Preserve needed to acquire accreditation or certification from the AMGA or some other known outdoor entity that was examining climbing programs, to establish some sort of competency and correct business procedures. This was done because the Mohonk Preserve was (and still is) a small non-profit organization and unlike the National Park Service or a state park, could theoretically be wiped out by a climbing lawsuit that didn't go its way. The idea was that by requiring some type of accreditation or certification, at least a portion of the liability load was transferred from the Preserve to the certifying/accrediting entity.  Some people at the Gunks that had already been guiding for a long time were initially not in favor of this Preserve certification or accreditation requirement, but they complied. Remember, this was the mid-1980s - the AMGA was a relatively new organization, PCGI didn't exist and outdoor lawsuits in America were on the upswing (see the late-1980s/early 90s Buck Mountain lawsuit against Grand Teton National Park and the National Park Service  concerning its rescue capabilities if you want to see how scary this situation got. AAC President Jim McCarthy called the Buck Mountain  ruling one of the most important court decisions about climbing that has ever occurred).

Along comes the NYS guide requirement. Again, the DEC initially received no extra funding to establish or administer this licensing requirement. A number of Gunks climbers and guides as well as climbers from the Daks were involved in the initial discussions with the DEC about state climbing guide licensing. We all assumed there would be some sort of practical competency test. How could you judge a climbing guide without a practical test!? Well, the DEC decided they didn't have the expertise or capacity to do any type of practical exam for all of the different disciplines that the NYS legislature had included under this new law. Therefore, the only measure of competency would be a written test. We pushed back as hard as we could to get some kind of practical test, but did not prevail.

Rosie Andrews and I were tasked with writing questions specific to climbing. To make things fair and equitable, the DEC decided the answers to the questions had to be contained in widely available books that an aspirant guide could study. To make it really fair, that meant the DEC offices had to have copies of the books, so that a person without means could consult them at the DEC office. Because there was no funding, the number of books had to be at the bare minimum (like one per sport). I don't remember which book we choose (maybe Learning to Rock Climb by Michael Loughman [1982], as the Royal Robbins books were getting dated). Anyway, we made up bunches of multiple choice and true or false questions, assuming the test would solely be for climbing. Then the DEC decided it would be ONE test for ALL guide disciplines. That meant a fishing guide had to have a fair chance of answering a climbing question correctly and a whitewater guide had to likely be successful on a hunting question. So, questions like:

 Which way does the red portion of the needle on a compass point?

A) South

B) East

C) North

D) West

became the standard type of NYS guide question at that time (BTW, the correct answer is "C"). Obviously, many of the initial climbing test questions we had developed were too rigorous for this "one size fits all" test. 

We were appalled, but that is how it initially turned out. I haven't been involved with the program for decades, but the info above is a general sketch of how this licensing program came to be in the 1980s. The DEC website about the current program is here:

DEC Guide Program

Edit concerning PB's comment below - the "flop" really wasn't with the DEC, the "flop" was that the NYS legislature

 A) made a requirement that wouldn't actually fix the problem (see NYS Whitewater accident) and

B) then provided no funding to implement this guide licensing scheme, making a practical test impossible.

This was exactly the kind of detail I wanted to know, thanks for the history! Unbelievable flop on the part of the DEC…

Gunkswest wrote:

More than you want to know about the history of this New York State guide program:

Following a whitewater rafting accident in the mid-1980s that left some members of a bus tour injured and dead, New York State instituted a state-wide guide licensing requirement for most outdoor sports. Prior to this accident, the "guide" licensing was basically limited to hunting and fishing - the traditional Northeast guide, like a Maine Guide.. The implementation of this new licensing scheme included whitewater rafting, rock and ice climbing, etc. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation "DEC" (known in other states as something like "Fish & Game") was given the responsibility of setting up and administering the program. The DEC was initially given no additional funding by the state legislature to institute this new program.

The DEC contacted the Mohonk Preserve, the owner of the Gunks, since that entity had climbing and had already instituted (or was about to institute, I can't remember the exact timing) a requirement for climbing guides to have some form of certification. I was the person that established that guiding requirement at the Gunks - guides operating on the Preserve needed to acquire accreditation or certification from the AMGA or some other known outdoor entity that was examining climbing programs, to establish some sort of competency and correct business procedures. This was done because the Mohonk Preserve was (and still is) a small non-profit organization and unlike the National Park Service or a state park, could theoretically be wiped out by a climbing lawsuit that didn't go its way. The idea was that by requiring some type of accreditation or certification, at least a portion of the liability load was transferred from the Preserve to the certifying/accrediting entity.  Some people at the Gunks that had already been guiding for a long time were initially not in favor of this Preserve certification or accreditation requirement, but they complied. Remember, this was the mid-1980s - the AMGA was a relatively new organization, PCGI didn't exist and outdoor lawsuits in America were on the upswing (see the late-1980s/early 90s Buck Mountain lawsuit against Grand Teton National Park and the National Park Service  concerning its rescue capabilities if you want to see how scary this situation got. AAC President Jim McCarthy called the ruling one of the most important decisions about climbing that has ever occurred).

Along comes the NYS guide requirement. Again, the DEC initially received no extra funding to establish or administer this licensing requirement. A number of Gunks climbers and guides as well as climbers from the Daks were involved in the initial discussions with the DEC about state climbing guide licensing. We all assumed there would be some sort of practical competency test. How could you judge a climbing guide without a practical test!? Well, the DEC decided they didn't have the expertise or capacity to do any type of practical exam for all of the different disciplines that the NYS legislature had included under this new law. Therefore, the only measure of competency would be a written test. We pushed back as hard as we could to get some kind of practical test, but did not prevail.

Rosie Andrews and I were tasked with writing questions specific to climbing. To make things fair and equitable, the DEC decided the answers to the questions had to be contained in widely available books that an aspirant guide could study. To make it really fair, that meant the DEC offices had to have copies of the books, so that a person without means could consult them at the DEC office. Because there was no funding, the number of books had to be at the bare minimum (like one per sport). I don't remember which book we choose (maybe Learning to Rock Climb by Michael Loughman [1982], as the Royal Robbins books were getting dated). Anyway, we made up bunches of multiple choice and true or false questions, assuming the test would solely be for climbing. Then the DEC decided it would be ONE test for ALL guide disciplines. That meant a fishing guide had to have a fair chance of answering a climbing question correctly and a whitewater guide had to likely be successful on a hunting question. So, questions like:

 Which way does the red portion of the needle on a compass point?

A) South

B) East

C) North

D) West

became the standard type of NYS guide question at that time (BTW, the correct answer is "C"). Obviously, many of the initial climbing test questions we had developed were too rigorous for this "one size fits all" test. 

We were appalled, but that is how it initially turned out. I haven't been involved with the program for decades, but the info above is a general sketch of how this licensing program came to be in the 1980s. The DEC website about the current program is here:

DEC Guide Program

Edit concerning PB's comment below - the "flop" really wasn't with the DEC, the "flop" was that the NYS legislature A) made a requirement that wouldn't actually fix the problem and B) then provided no funding to implement this guide licensing scheme, making a practical test impossible.

Thanks for the info!

Thanks, Gunkswest. 

One of the requirements is "Rock and ice climbing applicants must submit a notarized climbing resume." Interesting story and licensing.

I knew nothing of the Buck Mountain case until this thread; thanks for sharing that.

Here's a brief summary of the case from the LA Times for those interested:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-12-14-mn-228-story.html?_amp=true

And the Accidents report:

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198806500

That is an interesting route to get where we are today!  The notarized resume is the strangest aspect of the licensing procedure.  One must note what climbs they've led, the grade, # of pitches, partner and date.  There must be at least 10 climbs led within the past year or two, I believe.  The exam itself is not too bad.  Make sure to brush up on shock loaded anchor equations before sitting it, as I recall those were the only questions that slowed me down(this was about 5 years ago though).  There is another exam that you must take prior to the climbing exam which is an broader picture 'NYS Guide' exam.  If you are dubious about your knowledge, review the boy scouts of america handbook and you won't have any issues with that one.  Good luck!  Reach out if you need anything. 

Just to clarify - there are now separate exams for the various disciplines. But, due to yet another quirk of the establishing legislation, all guides, including technical climbing guides, must be "skilled in the use of boats and canoes". Yes, that is another paper test you need to pass.

Hey Jack, I'm in a similar boat, taking the DEC exam (Tier II rock). Just an FYI my understanding is most outfits in NY will want you to have both an AMGA cert (or similar) in addition to the DEC license (generally a Tier 1 rock cert) . From what I have heard from folks, studying The Freedom of the Hills is a good idea for the DEC written exam. 

Rachel F wrote:

Hey Jack, I'm in a similar boat, taking the DEC exam (Tier II rock). Just an FYI my understanding is most outfits in NY will want you to have both an AMGA cert (or similar) in addition to the DEC license (generally a Tier 1 rock cert) . From what I have heard from folks, studying The Freedom of the Hills is a good idea for the DEC written exam. 

+1 to this. I don't know of any guide service that won't want you to have at least entry level AMGA cert. and probably WFR as well.  Given the cost of obtaining these, and re-certifying every 2-3 years, you'll want to be making some money off of them. I say this to contrast with the poster a year or so ago who just wanted to go the AMGA route for reasons that would best be described as "personal growth".

Thank you Gunkswest for the historical/insider perspective.

A couple of adds to the above…

If you're interested in becoming a climbing instructor/guide and working in NYS it's worth it to take the hiking and camping guide exams in addition to the rock climbing exam(s). A little extra studying makes your skill set more marketable. And, as mentioned above the base-level AMGA SPI certification will likely be a requirement for most guiding firms, certainly all of the ones operating at The Gunks.

For study materials, the BSA Fieldbook is an easy read—got mine from Amazon for $10-15. The LNT section is useful, as are most of the chapters in the Trek Adventures section. A slightly better reference for climbing skills (IMHO) would be the AMGA Single Pitch Manual published by Falcon. I also spent quite a bit of time digging through the Regulations section of the NYSDEC website, https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/regulations.html.

Having gone through the whole process myself (SPI cert. + WFR + NYSDEC license), it's not to be taken lightly. All of the different exams, whether written or practical require that you know your stuff. Kudos to all of the climbing guides and instructors working in NYS—it takes a lot of time effort and money to obtain then maintain all of the certifications required.

PM me if you have specific questions. Good luck with your journey Jack. I hope to see you out there.

Fascinating stuff! Thanks Todd (gunkswest) for that explanation!

DEC actually ran a  sting on me 15 or so years ago for guiding  Rogers rock without their license.  Came ripping out of the bushes with sirens and rollers flashing.. crazy stuff.  One of the local  guides had  complained to them.  That guide could have contacted me and  told me to  knock it off and that I needed a license.  DEC could have done the  same thing and I  would have complied.  Instead they  went to all the  trouble to set me up with an  under  cover cop as a  client and  busted me  just like a drug deal..  Crazy  stuff...

Hey thanks everyone for all the info! Ill check out freedom of the hills and the bsa manual. I am mainly doing this for a credential on my resume. I am in med school and want to match into a wilderness medicine program and thought it might help! I have my spi course but havnt taken the exam yet because it will expire before i can do anything with it. Thanks again!