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Tarp Bivy ledge?

Original Post
Ben M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 49

Curious what people’s experience is with a tarp on a bivy ledge as a JIC shelter if unexpected weather rolls in. I’m hesitant to drop cash on a bivy bag when I already use tarps for backpacking.

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,100

A PITA because when weather rolls in that typically means wind. Trying to stay dry while it is pissing sideways and keeping the tarp secure is not going to happen. Also on ledge water can flow in weird ways so about the time you think you have things set, a trickle of water rolls down your butt. Finally, if you are going to try to sleep keeping the trap in one place is not going to happen.

Now if you want to just hunker down while storm passes overhead a cagoule would be a better option as some are pretty long.

Ben M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 49

How about a pyramid shelter? (No floor)

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300

Do you envision using your just-in-case shelter to sleep in, or is it just a place to keep you dry while you wait out some storm? If for the later, I'm a big fan of a bothy bag. I've never used one on a ledge, but used mine plenty on flat ground. If the ledge is big enough I see no reason why you can't use it. And there's usually a vent on the side of the bothy so you should be able to connect yourself to the anchor creatively.

Ben M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 49

I’m basically envisioning that when we notice the weather changing we either book it to the next ledge or retreat to a lower point to wait out the storm. So a JIC shelter that isn’t too expensive or specialized and can preferably be slept in. I’ll look into the Bothy bag. 

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Ben M wrote:

How about a pyramid shelter? (No floor)

Um, "...on a bivy ledge..."???

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
Ben M wrote:

I’m basically envisioning that when we notice the weather changing we either book it to the next ledge or retreat to a lower point to wait out the storm. So a JIC shelter that isn’t too expensive or specialized and can preferably be slept in.

If you want to lie down flat and sleep, then bothy bag isn't going to be the right choice. It's more of a temporary sitting shelter to hunker down, as soon as the storm passes you move on. For sleeping a bivy bag would be better. Andy Kirkpatrick had a good write up on bothy bag vs. bivy bag many years ago, I don't think much has changed. https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/bothy_or_bivy_bag

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300
M Jarmland wrote:

That's funny, I was reading this thread and thought of suggesting a bothy, or wind sack, as we call them in Scandinavia. And I have this exact one from the pictures, the Terra Nova 2p bothy.

I recently reread The White Spider and imagine they used something similar on the FA of the Eiger north wall. A tent sack, I belive Harrer called it.

Now I'm slowly entertaining the idea of modding the top to be able to tie in inside it, like on a portaledge rainfly. Maybe it's a terrible idea, I haven't decided yet.

I have the Terra Nova 2P too. With this bothy bag, the stuff sack is also the vent (with a mesh as the bottom of the stuff sack). I imagine it's quite easy to take a hot knife and slice a little opening in the vent/stuff sack that would allow you to run a piece of rope/sling through and tie that to the anchor, then once you're inside the bothy, you can clip in to this rope/sling. Since the vent is on the side, seems that it would be more weather proof then modding the top. What am I missing?

James W · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2021 · Points: 0

Make a teepee with the tarp - middle is the top.  Inside and at the top is, for example, a large hex or slung piece of gear.  On the outside, double or triple girth hitch that piece of gear, cinching the tarp, and clip to a solid anchor.  You can now clip in and hang from the slung piece inside the tarp and droop your rope down and back to the anchor as backup.  No ledge needed.  This helps avoid most of the problems Allen mentions.  Enjoy - lol.

Ben M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 49
Marc801 C wrote:

Um, "...on a bivy ledge..."??

On any side by side sleepable ledge you can likely set up a tarp, pyramid shelter or a small tent like the BD firstlight. I don’t see how this is an unreasonable line of thought. Curious what people’s systems are since the consensus about bivy bags is that they are awful. 

Fabien M · · Cannes · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 5
Ben M wrote:

On any side by side sleepable ledge you can likely set up a tarp, pyramid shelter or a small tent like the BD firstlight. I don’t see how this is an unreasonable line of thought. Curious what people’s systems are since the consensus about bivy bags is that they are awful. 

You re right, bivy bags are awful, in a normal situation.
However in a survival situation they will allow you to isolate from the element like nothing else and much more than a tarp that is subject to wind and dependent of ways to anchor it. 

Personally for alpine I always carry the Ortovox ultralight bivy, can fit 2 persons, 150 grs.
My advice it to practise using it, much like you do with an avalanche beacon, so when the day come you will know how it works and what you can expect from it.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,094
Ben M wrote:

On any side by side sleepable ledge you can likely set up a tarp, pyramid shelter or a small tent like the BD firstlight. I don’t see how this is an unreasonable line of thought. Curious what people’s systems are since the consensus about bivy bags is that they are awful. 

Pyramid shelters typically have a larger footprint than a tent, and usually tarps, too. A first light will almost certainly fit places a mid won't. Tarps have been used in some pretty hairball places (north face of north twin comes to mind), but I feel that for those sorts of climbs today they have largely been supplanted by lightweight bivy sacks. A tarp used to be the clear winner in weight compared to two bivy sacks, but with many light options available today, it's hard to argue in favor of the tarp. Instead you'd use a tent (more weatherproof) or two bivy sacks (more versatile).

What's the application for this? Sure a bivy sack isn't amazing, but unless you're questing hard, you'll be waiting for a weather window, in which case the bivy sack is insurance as opposed to the ideal shelter option. 

Ben M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 49

The application of this is for a multi day rock route with one or two planned bivies. Waiting for a weather window but you never really know what’s going to pop up. 

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,094
Ben M wrote:

The application of this is for a multi day rock route with one or two planned bivies. Waiting for a weather window but you never really know what’s going to pop up. 

Wall or alpine? In either case, bivy sack still probably wins out.

Ben M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 49
Derek DeBruin wrote:

Wall or alpine? In either case, bivy sack still probably wins out.

Both? Bugaboos in July. Available ledges look reasonably generous.

Dave Olsen · · Channeled Scablands · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 10

On lower angle cliffs, most of the water will be coming from sheeting down the rock. The rain from the sky will feel like little consequence in comparison.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,094
Ben M wrote:

Both? Bugaboos in July. Available ledges look reasonably generous.

Really depends on how weather proof you actually want to be then, because we are talking rain and not snow. Tent will win that analysis, at the cost of weight. But whether tent or mid, you'll need some way to tension the corners since stakes don't work so well driving into a solid rock ledge. A tent is typically easier to construct as a result. I think it comes down to likelihood of precip for your weather window, whether you can afford to get wet (ex. lots of down to keep dry?), how comfortable you want to be, and whether that means potential more sleeping comfort vs the discomfort of carrying a heavier load. That assumes all options are equally available to you. 

In short, if you want to use a tarp, go for it. It wouldn't be the first time it's been done. But you might find other options better for weight, versatility, weatherproofing, etc.

Sam Skovgaard · · Port Angeles, WA · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 208

You better have some sharp tent pegs to nail into the solid granite when you're building that nicely-pitched, origami tarp haha.

Bivvy sacks are the superior way to keep dry alive in a storm on the wall.  If you want some where to keep dry hang out for days at a time while keeping morale high enough to continue, you should go for a small tent built for such a purpose, like the BD firstlight.

You will not be dry in either scenario, but will will be significantly less soggy in a little tent.

Will McCarthy · · Bend Oregon · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 0

A cagoule may be the ticket

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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