Retrieve/Abseil in a First Ascent Big Wall Route

I have a big doubt... in a first ascent of a big wall route, without bolts, just with trad anchors, how to abseil without leave any gear or anything?
i know have lots of ways, like a leaving a sling or piece of cord in a block of rock or use a tree, and lots of other ways...
but how to leave no trace?
i saw a lot of climb documentary in big wall routes and alpine routes, but never is showed how the climbers abseil, if they leave some gear or any trace..
can some one put some documentary video showing something about it... or maybe explain with some details?
i now knew in climb but im not a expert, especially in trad routes... I've read the book Down which explains a lot and more, but I still don't understand the path to the abseil without leaving any traces on a Big Wall first ascent 

Cheers

If there is no walk-off possible from the first ascent, the party will have to leave gear as they rappel down the face. Generally slings, nuts, and pitons.

i suppose if you really had to descend the face and refused to leave gear for rappels, you could down-lead the entire wall

Ross Goldberg wrote:

If there is no walk-off possible from the first ascent, the party will have to leave gear as they rappel down the face. Generally slings, nuts, and pitons.

the ideia is no walk off possible, and without leave gear, even slings, cords, nuts, pitons or anything else...

Bharath T wrote:

i suppose if you really had to descend the face and refused to leave gear for rappels, you could down-lead the entire wall

yes, i was thinking about it, down-lead... it must be quite time consuming... but maybe it's the only way to abseil without leave gear behind or anything...

maybe that's why in these documentaries about big wall or  alpine first ascent, they don't film the rappelling, because they're leaving some gears or maybe down climb....

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

I recommend BASE jumping off and parachuting you and your gear back to the ground. What purity. Truly ghosting a big wall. 

go foward dude.... lol
im not a base jumper.... trying to understand a way to abseil in that way....

I'd imagine carrying a hand drill and enough bolts to get you to the ground is going to be your best bet.

Bharath T wrote:

i suppose if you really had to descend the face and refused to leave gear for rappels, you could down-lead the entire wall

Down-following runouts sounds like a lot of fun

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

I'd imagine carrying a hand drill and enough bolts to get you to the ground is going to be your best bet.

Not exactly LNT.  If there is no easier descent - maybe not a walk off but easier so that down leading is feasible - and yo have to ab off - then there are few options.  If you really absolutely positively need to do it - would only be feasible for one short rappel - then look into the "Texas Rope Trick" with the sling around some natural anchor.  Please note that I am NOT advocating that you try and do this -its not a technique for the inexperienced and if you have to ask the question...well...

Lone Pine wrote:

Down-following runouts sounds like a lot of fun

You wouldn't really down-follow, would you? First person raps/lower and then the leader down-leads?

I don't know. It does not sound fun.

Igor Chained wrote:

You wouldn't really down-follow, would you? First person raps/lower and then the leader down-leads?

I don't know. It does not sound fun.

Herb and Jan Conn never abseiled, always choosing to down lead off their climbs. Not sure exactly how they did it, but I don't see the first rapping, down climbing and replacing or at least reclipping the gear. I used this method to get of one formation going up one side and down the other, I don't think my partner understood the place gear after the hard moves concept. Ideally the first person down needs to feel the moves and make sure the second, whose actually looking at a lead fall, has gear below the hard moves. 

yeah it's definitely tricky to be downclimbing above gear that you didn't place and can't assess

its really not fun to down climb... specially because the first person to rapel need to placing the gears, then the leader need to down climb...maybe its a little trick to the second rapel and place the gears in good places...

Eric Engberg wrote:

Not exactly LNT.  If there is no easier descent - maybe not a walk off but easier so that down leading is feasible - and yo have to ab off - then there are few options.  If you really absolutely positively need to do it - would only be feasible for one short rappel - then look into the "Texas Rope Trick" with the sling around some natural anchor.  Please note that I am NOT advocating that you try and do this -its not a technique for the inexperienced and if you have to ask the question...well...

Texas Rope Trick its a way, i already did that a few times... but you need a bolt/hanger, rings, or a solid rock to put some cordellette or even sling to recoery...

Im still try to figure out how to abseil in a first ascent big wall ou alpine big wall without hand drill and place bolts/hanger or rivet (thats a good and safe way, its take time to drill but its quite safe, but you will leave something "forever" on the wall), and without left any gear (cam, nut, hex, cord, sling or anything else) behind... maybe one way is to use a 60m or 70m of 3-4mm cord with a loop in the trigger of the cam, for exemple, to try to retrieve it...

any one have more opinions and knowledge to share?

"A" threads (like in ice climbing) drilled in the rock. Good luck pulling the rope.

christoph benells wrote:

"A" threads (like in ice climbing) drilled in the rock. Good luck pulling the rope.

good luck drilling a A thread in the rock..
hehehhehe

3000' rope and a beal escaper.

NeNi Gabbardo wrote:

the ideia is no walk off possible, and without leave gear, even slings, cords, nuts, pitons or anything else...

Well that’s just not a realistic idea. 

NeNi Gabbardo wrote:

the ideia is no walk off possible, and without leave gear, even slings, cords, nuts, pitons or anything else...

But why?

Frequently in alpine bigwall documentaries they do show the rappelling, usually following some cliche line about "the summit is only halfway there." Often times it is via some gulley route where there are opportunities to sling rocks and the like or they rap the face where they placed bolts. I don't think you'll find many/any alpinists out there deciding to voluntarily down-climbing some first ascent they put up just to avoid leaving gear. 

Mentioned in passing up thread, you could try to apply some of the canyoneering ghosting techniques ( canyoneeringusa.com/techtip…) to rock faces, but it would be very dangerous.

Sam England wrote:

3000' rope and a beal escaper.

yeah... but you still need an anchor, the rope and the beal will be retrieved, but how about your anchor, will be a bolt/hanger, sling, cord, piton.... maybe a tree, in that way you not gonna leave trace, in that case you can use a Macrame/Ghost Knot to dont spend money with beal escaper, or maybe you can use a FiddleStick, i think its cheapiest...

Em Cos wrote:

Just something that came to my head... cause i already did some things like this, normally i can retrieve my cord or sling, i think just one or two times i left a cord behind and in one traversse one krab, but never a "expensive" gear... im just trying to figure out if have some way without leave nothing behind...

some docs they show sometimes the rappeling, and like you said, "following some cliche".. but i saw lots of docs in some alpine terrain, in big wall with rock and not to much snow, and in someones the climber talk about the descent how hard was and they leave no trace, no gear and not even drilled any bolt, than i ask my self HOW? they dont show, and dont explain, maybe they just talking that, but probably they left some behind... of course in the ice or snow parts its "easier" to not left something behind, cause you can do an A or V Thread or in soft snow, can use a snow stake or do a releasable axe anchor...

anyway, like i said its just something came to my mind a long time and now i decided to ask experiences climbers if they do know and want to share... and how about the canyoneering ghosting techniques, i already used and still when needed... its a really good way, have anothers but this is a good technique...

cheers all

Descent from a large face is going to be involved, regardless of the scenario. When possible, walk off. If not, down climb whenever possible. On sufficiently large alpine objectives, there is a lot of up and down soloing. It largely depends on the comfort level and ability of the party with the terrain in question. 

Failing that, the next best option is to use A threads in ice. Snow anchors can also work, though bollards are time consuming to construct. Similarly, snow can be used as the rappel anchor with the retrievable ice axe trick. 

Boulders and trees are probably next on the list. For short rappels, the macrame (aka death daisy or equivocation hitch) can work. Not ideal for longer rappels given retrieval problems. 

After that would be anything that allows the party to leave only a sling/cord, such as a constiction, horn, boulder, thread, etc. Next in line are stoppers/nuts and pitons, then cams and/or bolts. 

These days, many (but certainly not all) new routes climb to the summit of a mountain that has already been climbed. Consequently, descent is often down the established easiest route on the mountain. Even if there are no other established routes, there may be an easier way off the peak simply because the party didn't go up the easiest way. 

Down leading is an option, but pretty time consuming.

If there is a lot of terrain to descend, down climbing (soloing) is often the most conservative option in the sense that it is the quickest and also doesn't leave any gear behind, thereby making the gear available if needed for potential rappels lower down.

My friends who FA'd a wall on Baffin Island descended off the back and side, which was a shorter overall technical height, and used hand drilled single bolt anchors for all the rappels. On alpine routes I've climbed I've used all the above tactics at one point or another except bolts (I've only used bolts on purely rock climbs).

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Descent from a large face is going to be involved, regardless of the scenario. When possible, walk off. If not, down climb whenever possible. On sufficiently large alpine objectives, there is a lot of up and down soloing. It largely depends on the comfort level and ability of the party with the terrain in question. 

Failing that, the next best option is to use A threads in ice. Snow anchors can also work, though bollards are time consuming to construct. Similarly, snow can be used as the rappel anchor with the retrievable ice axe trick. 

Boulders and trees are probably next on the list. For short rappels, the macrame (aka death daisy or equivocation hitch) can work. Not ideal for longer rappels given retrieval problems. 

After that would be anything that allows the party to leave only a sling/cord, such as a constiction, horn, boulder, thread, etc. Next in line are stoppers/nuts and pitons, then cams and/or bolts. 

These days, many (but certainly not all) new routes climb to the summit of a mountain that has already been climbed. Consequently, descent is often down the established easiest route on the mountain. Even if there are no other established routes, there may be an easier way off the peak simply because the party didn't go up the easiest way. 

Down leading is an option, but pretty time consuming.

If there is a lot of terrain to descend, down climbing (soloing) is often the most conservative option in the sense that it is the quickest and also doesn't leave any gear behind, thereby making the gear available if needed for potential rappels lower down.

My friends who FA'd a wall on Baffin Island descended off the back and side, which was a shorter overall technical height, and used hand drilled single bolt anchors for all the rappels. On alpine routes I've climbed I've used all the above tactics at one point or another except bolts (I've only used bolts on purely rock climbs).

cheers mate... thats was a amazing answer, with topics that go to the easist to hard way.... most i already readed something about in some books, specially on Andy's book, Down, but i never did some of those techniques and some others i already did, but your answer was a really opening mind to me reading that in "live time" about other experienced climber...
cheers