Petzl RAD line vs new PUR line

So I'm familiar with the benefits and limitations of the RAD line but a little confused on their new PUR line.  Similar HMPE construction, same CE EN 564 certification, same diameter, both are hyperstatic (less than 2% elongation), both work with Tibloc and micro traction but the PUR is lighter than the RAD (20g/m vs 22g/m) and most importantly ALOT cheaper ($240 for 65m instead of $460! for 60m of RAD line).

PUR seems to be marketed as a pull and hauling cord only but could it also reasonably be used as a lightweight standalone rap cord? (im mainly interested in ski rappels).  Hell if they are both hyperstatic cord and the RAD is used for glacial travel why couldn't the PUR as well? 

Why is the RAD line marketed as being useful for so many more things and nearly twice the price?

Enlighten me, thanks.

I found this link helpful in discerning some of the intended purposes of the two lines. Maybe it will answer your question...

https://www.colinhaley.com/nugget-1-the-petzl-purline/

They're both hyper-purpose-built. RAD is for rescue and descent on snow and ice, PURLINE is for tag and hauling. They each get very subtle differences to help them be perfect for the exact purpose they're built:

• RAD line has a (relatively) rough sheath for better handling, more friction on ice and snow when arresting falls, and for extra friction in a device. It's generally a more flexible/supple line for similar reasons, in addition to the suppleness adding some compactness when you stuff it in your pack. It's orange so you can see it against white snow. Its sheath is also built to have extra durability on snow --- note that RAD line sheath has more materials woven into it than the PUR'LINE, while both lines have pure HMPE cores.
• PUR'LINE is extremely slippery, with its sheath made exclusively of pure HMPE (hence the name) so it won't catch on rough granite when hauling or when pulling down a rappel cord. It's much stiffer than RAD line, again intentionally so it performs really well for the two purposes it was built for --- a stiff line is easy to throw for a rappel without getting stuck, and it's easier to stack neatly in non-slipping loops at a belay station while you're hauling in slack. It's also white so you can see it better on rock instead of snow. Its durability on rock is pretty unbelievable, really off the charts. (Multi-season durability on rock was apparently one of the things that blew the testers away the most)
• You can theoretically rappel on a PUR'LINE --- the tech notice gives you a [!] for rappelling instead of the classic Petzl [Death] icon --- but it's almost certainly more slippery than you're imagining. From my experience, it's a nearly unstoppable nightmare in a GRIGRI, and it starts to approach a reasonable experience with two strands in a REVERSO with an extension and a third hand. But even then it's pretty spooky and it moves pretty fast. RAD line rappels much better (especially on a simple munter!). I also have never tried to rappel on a wet PUR'LINE. Wouldn't want to.
• RAD line will have a bit of extra friction when used on rock as a haul line, and will have significantly less durability on rock.
• Their lengths were selected to pair with their intended usages as well, but that's not as big a deal. 65m PUR'LINE for pairing with a 60m dynamic rope for rappels, 200m PUR'LINE for doing whatever other crazy thing.
• The PUR'LINE is kinda hard to knot in a way that's super confidence inspiring (because it's so damn slick). Petzl mandates two opposing flat overhand bends (that is to say, one left-handed EDK, with a right-handed EDK past that one as a backup) as the only joining knot setup that will work in all conditions.

So, in summary: It's less that Petzl is just marketing them for specific uses, and it's simply that Petzl designed them from the ground up for specific uses. You are certain to have a better time if you're using the right line for the specific uses it was designed for.

As a final point, I also have 5m and 8m lengths of PUR'LINE for accessory cord. It's incredibly lightweight but ties bulky master points because it's designed to be so stiff.

What else ya wanna know?

Pat, that is great insight, thank you.

Really nice insights Pat. I have 40 ish meters of purline i got for 70 bucks from Europe. It's definitely slippery. It's definitely thin. So far my use case has been on solos with raps in the alpine which it has worked very well. Definitely use caution. I've used it with a mago 8 and two biners and it's not been awful. I'm looking to use as a ski rap line but the thought of thicker gloves and it being wet are uh. Scary. I think a super munter should be ok though. There's a good amount of friction but i wouldn't trust any third hand on it when wet. Also i highly recommend a throw bag. All cords this thin suck for tangles but this one seems worse when uncoiling than the RAD imo. I use a cheap lunchbox from Ikea that's 30 grams and cost 49 cents. Wayyyy better than getting blown around on an exposed ridge trying to uncoil

NateC wrote:

I found this link helpful in discerning some of the intended purposes of the two lines. Maybe it will answer your question...

https://www.colinhaley.com/nugget-1-the-petzl-purline/

Some good discussion on his Facebook page. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=262974535287640&id=100047252856199

He recs 2 belay devices in series to rap a single strand of Pur if that might be an issue for you (I sometimes use an Escaper with my 6mm lines). Factor that into your overall weight savings/faff calculation. 

A single ATC Alpine Guide works fine on a single strand of my Mammut and Edelrid 6mm's, but they're heavier for sure. 

In the Petzl technical notice they say the following:

Pack hauling: 

Petzl has carried out the tests necessary to ensure that these products are compatible with 

each other. 

- PUR LINE + MICRO TRAXION, TIBLOC, NANO TRAXION or PRO TRAXION + BASIC or 

ASCENSION = compatibility verifed by Petzl. 

- PUR LINE + any other ascender = potential danger.

I imagine that with a heavy haul bag that the Purline+microtrax+ basic/acension would be easier to haul up, but with a lighter multipitch bag, would it still be necessary? The microtrax would grip the purline as you pull up, and you could wear gloves for extra grip on the purline...  or add a tibloc instead

jdejace wrote:

He recs 2 belay devices in series to rap a single strand of Pur if that might be an issue for you (I sometimes use an Escaper with my 6mm lines). Factor that into your overall weight savings/faff calculation. 

A single ATC Alpine Guide works fine on a single strand of my Mammut and Edelrid 6mm's, but they're heavier for sure. 

I've discussed the rap device thing with Colin a bit but mostly for even smaller ropes than 6mm.  You really only need one normal device and then the second device in the series can just be some form of a biner break ( just don't use a Munter hitch!).  This is what I've done when rapping cords that are closer to 4mm.  I've also tested 3mm spectra cord as an auto block on super skinny rap lines and it seems to work.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

I've discussed the rap device thing with Colin a bit but mostly for even smaller ropes than 6mm.  You really only need one normal device and then the second device in the series can just be some form of a biner break ( just don't use a Munter hitch!).  This is what I've done when rapping cords that are closer to 4mm.  I've also tested 3mm spectra cord as an auto block on super skinny rap lines and it seems to work.

Have you found a solution to rapping with the PUR line tied to a regular rope and not having to biner-block it?

I was doing some two-rope rappels with a 9.4 sterling rope and my 65m PUR line and I found that if I had the PUR line threaded through the anchor (like if you’re alternating which strand gets threaded so you don’t have to untie when doing multiple rappel) and I tried to rap as normal with a strand of climbing rope and strand of PUR line (+ 3rd hand backup) through my device, the PUR line is so slippery it would just lower the PUR line through the anchor and essentially begin self-lowering me instead of rappelling, with only the PUR line sliding through my rappel device.

I had to untie the joining EDK knot and rethread the climbing rope through the next rappel anchor each time. Curious if you’ve had similar problems or have a solution. 

I'm curious if anyone has been able to use the PUR line as a replacement for the RAD line in a glacier travel/ ski rap only scenario. Trying to upgrade from my heavy half rope in my ski mountaineering setup. Would the PUR line be adequate as a rescue and descent rope?

Just bumping this thread as I just got my hands on a PUR Line and have been doing some rap tests with it to check device compatibility. The PUR line, as mentioned above, is very slippery. Not exceptionally stiff but much stiffer than standard 7mm accessory cord. 

As for rapping on the thing Ive done a few tests with the grigri so far. On a single strand, the grigri will not fully stop the feed of the PUR line and it will slip under my full bodyweight (140 pounds ish) The line also feels like it gets "flattened" quite easily if hanging on a single point for any amount of time. Is this a safety issue, maybe....Im not sure, but it doesnt make me feel super confident. I have found three interesting things relating to rappelling on the PUR line with a grigri: 

1. This is going to sound a bit janky and it probably is but I did notice a big difference in the lockup strength and time when rapping on a single strand of the pur line. Take the nose of a carabiner and shove it into the hole where the break side of the rope is coming out of the gri. This essentially closes the distance between the cam/rope and the steel plate that pinches the rope to break it. 
2. It is possible to feed the grigri with two strands of the PUR line in parallel because of how thin it is. This blocks much better than a single strand and didnt seem to have any feeding/releasing issues under my weight. Yes this would mean a 32.5m rap on a doubled up PUR line but hey maybe it will come in handy to someone. 
3. The third thing I noticed and the most interesting to me was loading the grigri with a single strand of PUR line but doing an extra loop around the breaking cam, this added considerable friction to the line and didnt seem to add any significant issues when moving down the rope. Where I did feel this becoming an issue was when trying to convert the system to ascending. There was a decent amount of force needed to flip the rope and change its orientation to feed smoothly in the other direction. My main concerns with this are the rope on rope friction inside of the device. I dont know if that would be an issue of concern and I'm sure in a pinch this could work, but is it worthy of being a standard technique... I'm not sure. 

Id love to hear others thoughts on this and see what you all think. I'll try to get some pictures of these up in a bit. 

Don't rap on 6mm cord with a gri gri ...

Use a tube device ...

Just my thoughts, but no way would i use a gri gri on the pur line or rad line

Monster Munter!

Gri gri sounds terrifying. Super munter, double pass tuber or tube with a couple biners is all I'd consider. 

No point in dragging a heavy heavy belay device up if trying to save weight. Either you are using a single line to belay with the GG in which case I'd biner block and use the pur for a pull cord with some stiffness or I'd carry a pear biner and super munter. 

Horses for courses and all that jazz

How well does the Grivel Scream work on PUR'LINE?

Brad McGaha wrote:

Gri gri sounds terrifying. Super munter, double pass tuber or tube with a couple biners is all I'd consider. 

No point in dragging a heavy heavy belay device up if trying to save weight. Either you are using a single line to belay with the GG in which case I'd biner block and use the pur for a pull cord with some stiffness or I'd carry a pear biner and super munter. 

Horses for courses and all that jazz

Wasn't as terrifying as I thought it would be in my testing. And an ATC with two lockers is very similar in weight to a gri btw. see: https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/grigris-for-alpine-climbing 

They both have their place, just wanted to share some ideas and thoughts if anyone ended up in a situation where rapping on a skinny cord with a gri was necessary. 

Webfoot wrote:

How well does the Grivel Scream work on PUR'LINE?

Probably not well at all. Didn't work well on my 6mm Mammut. I'd try the BD ATC Alpine Guide.

Ah, good call on the weights. I only super munter anymore if this is my only line so my setup weighs 45g + rope. It's amazing for alpine traverses where you might have to get off the ridge fast but don't want 10lbs for bail kit on easier traverses you are going to solo. Otherwise i do a GG and a 40m single rope paired with my 45m pur for the alpine. 

Also for Clints question/anyone reading this later. I'd use the RAD line for that. A season of using the PUR for skiing made me get a RAD line. It's way less slippery than the pur when wet. The PUR was doable but required a good bit more focus than I'd like while screwing around awkwardly with skiing and other pointy bits over an alpine rappel. I'm a punter ski mountaineer though so those less awkward might not have any issue with that. 

Christian Black wrote:

Have you found a solution to rapping with the PUR line tied to a regular rope and not having to biner-block it?

I saw the "2nd biner" suggestion on another thread (can't recall which) and used it recently on the Esprit APER, which is claimed at 6mm but sure as heck looks closer to 5.5...and slicker than snot. Had same problem of rap line running through anchors (could be mitigated by mostly locking down on the APER strand, and using less pressure on the lead line), so I brought a spare bulletproof non-locker, loaded my edelrid bulletproof triple fg and gigajul like normal, in atc orientation, with both strands captured by the triple FG...and then used the non-locker bulletproof to add a second biner to the APER strand (only the APER strand, not both strands). Made a WORLD of difference, almost no slip issue after that, both strands acted almost identical.

Alternatively, I almost always lead the raps, with the lead line cloved to the anchor, clove is removed *after* I am secured to next station and call up "off rappel!," and I then snugly clove the APER to the station I am at, so that my partner now goes on grigri. Seems to allow for more secure and more efficient raps, in my limited experience with it.

Christian Hesch wrote:

I saw the "2nd biner" suggestion on another thread (can't recall which) and used it recently on the Esprit APER, which is claimed at 6mm but sure as heck looks closer to 5.5...and slicker than snot. Had same problem of rap line running through anchors, so I brought a spare bulletproof non-locker, loaded my edelrid bulletproof triple fg and gigajul like normal, in atc orientation, with both strands captured by the triple FG...and then used the non-locker bulletproof to add a second biner to the APER strand (only the APER strand, not both strands). Made a WORLD of difference, almost no slip issue after that.

Alternatively, I almost always lead the raps, with the lead line cloved to the anchor, clove is removed when I am secured to next station and call up "off rappel!," and I then snugly clove the APER to the station I am at, so that my partner now goes on grigri. Seems to allow for more secure and more efficient raps, in my limited experience with it.

Trying to follow the last bit of this. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is my understanding. 

• The setup is a dynamic lead line and a 6mm PUR line/or similar 
• Both ropes tied together, lead line cloved off to the anchor and the rope running through the rings is the 6mm line
• Leader raps on cloved dynamic rope down to the anchor
• Leader calls off and cloves/ties off the skinny line to the next anchor
• Follower removes clove at the top and still raps on the lead line (??) because the 6mm line is tied off below its essentially counterweighted 
• Follower raps on dynamic line
• Dynamic line is pulled