Simul rapping with beginners is safer

I’ll give a bit of rationalization for the title.

In the scenario that you’ve just topped out a long route with a beginner.  You don’t fully trust them to set up a rappel alone.  You also maybe don’t trust them to find the next anchor and correctly transition to it.  Simul rapping lets you set up their rap, make sure the anchor is cleaned, and help them kick off, but still find and get to the next anchor first.

Knots in the end of the rope eliminate the risk of one of you rapping off the rope.

It’s very possible to rap a bit ahead of the other climber and give them a fireman’s should they happen to lose control, if you REALLY don’t trust them.

Unweighting / releasing a simul rap on a grigri or with an autoblock is nearly impossible.  Really, try it.  The rope may slide through the anchor slightly, but the autoblock/grigri will catch and the climber’s weight will act as a ballast… so long as your rope isn’t running over something super sharp and you’re not counting on every inch of your rope to make the next station, you’re not gonna die.

All of this is assuming your weights are relatively close.  If you’re guiding a fatty tell them they’re on their own.

This goes for multi-rap routes. If it’s a single rap, set up their system above yours, rap first, and give ‘em a fireman’s. You could of course do this on every rappel for something longer but it would take forever and you’ll probably get struck by lightning and die.

It’s easier to set up their rap with an extension before you leave the station.

Rig them at each station before you leave. Their device plus their brake hand fixed the rope so you can zip down on your Grigri

What Marc said. I used to think that simul rapping was significantly faster and, in some ways, it certainly is, but only with two experienced partners. Otherwise, the timid/new climber will likely rap much quicker with double ropes, than if they are on a single strand (unless on grigri, of course). Also a bit easier/safer to do a fireman belay when you have both hands free.

def give you a 9.5/10 for starting a 20+ response thread  ;)

JCM wrote:

Big fan of this post. Because a bunch of people will lose their minds over it (Arrrggg simul rap bad!). And because it is correct.

 In the past year, I've been doing more moderate multipitch with my girlfriend, who is a beginner on that type of climbing. When on a descent requiring multiple rappels, we pretty much always simul rap on GriGris, for exactly the reasons you describe. I'm able to be right next to get to assist and guide all steps. Plus from sport climbing she prefers the GriGri to an ATC.

Inb4 brad gets mentioned.

I’ve simul rapped with a beginner, on a Grigri, just below her, with her rope running loose through a draw on my harness so I had control over her side. I was able to coach and reassure her from up close, seemed to work out well.

Simul rappelling gets a bad rap

“Why are you rappelling with this person?”

Kind of a bummer you referred to an overweight climber as "a fatty."   Way to body shame an entire group of climbers.  Maybe reflect on how to spread a bit more positivity when you post next time.  Ever consider that a persons partner might be significantly heavier without being overweight....just a thought Will Johnson  

Matt J wrote:

  Way to body shame an entire group of climbers.  

Don't think there's enough to be called a group.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

If simul rapping with newbies was the best way, guides would do it, but we don't, because there's better solutions like pre-rigging. 

+1 to this - also, an awkward conversation when a 2nd newbie friend wants to join and you tell them they can't because that's one too many to simul-rappel. 

Pre-rig their rappel, go first, find the anchor, give them a fireman's if a friction hitch is too complicated for them. I took a friend who literally forgets his socks half the time on backpacking trips climbing and even he couldn't figure out a way to screw it up. 

This makes sense to me if you set up a reepschnur on the more experienced rapper's side, and use a tether to attach both people together.

JaredG wrote:

This makes sense to me if you set up a reepschnur on the more experienced rapper's side, and use a tether to attach both people together.

Not to hijack this thread,  but may as well since the OP is just plain wrong....

Can we stop with the reepschnur already?  I know of three parties that have called for rescue in RMNP in the past year because of reepschnurs-gone-wrong: set up correctly, but if used with bolts that are spaced apart at all it creates twisting that makes retrieval impossible.  

There are better options out there, folks.

Philip Magistro wrote:

Not to hijack this thread,  but may as well since the OP is just plain wrong....

Can we stop with the reepschnur already?  I know of three parties that have called for rescue in RMNP in the past year because of reepschnurs-gone-wrong: set up correctly, but if used with bolts that are spaced apart at all it creates twisting that makes retrieval impossible.  

There are better options out there, folks.

Settle down there Phillip.  I'd love to hear how a reepschnur has gone wrong.  I'm not saying it can't happen.  Stuck rope.  Rapped wrong rope strand?  But, details please.  

Greg D wrote:

Settle down there Phillip.  I'd love to hear how a reepschnur has gone wrong.  I'm not saying it can't happen.  Stuck rope.  Rapped wrong rope strand?  But, details please.  

Like I posted: using a reepschnur with bolts that are spaced apart (versus chains or something similar that comes to a single point) can introduce twist to the lines.  A few twists of the retrieval line around the lead rope and the system gets stuck beyond retrieval.  If you still have an end of the lead line and adequate knowledge, you can jug/prusik up and fix the twist, but if you've already pulled the lead line up and out of reach you can end up stuck with just some skinny retrieval line available to you.

Using something like the Petzl RAD or Esprit tag line, or IMO better yet a skinny line with partial aramid composition (highly cut and melt resistant) and simply rapping both lines avoids this issue for a miniscule weigh penalty.  Or use another option (half ropes, twins, carabiner block when appropriate, etc).

Philip Magistro wrote:

Like I posted: using a reepschnur with bolts that are spaced apart (versus chains or something similar that comes to a single point) can introduce twist to the lines.  A few twists of the retrieval line around the lead rope and the system gets stuck beyond retrieval.  If you still have an end of the lead line and adequate knowledge, you can jug/prusik up and fix the twist, but if you've already pulled the lead line up and out of reach you can end up stuck with just some skinny retrieval line available to you.

Using something like the Petzl RAD or Esprit tag line, or IMO better yet a skinny line with partial aramid composition (highly cut and melt resistant) and simply rapping both lines avoids this issue for a miniscule weigh penalty.  Or use another option (half ropes, twins, carabiner block when appropriate, etc).

Since you mention lead line and skinny retrieval line, I suspect you are thinking of something different than a reepshnur. Please prove me wrong. 

Terry E wrote:

This ?

https://youtu.be/dlKPQ_0f6aI

Thanks Einstein. Now explain why anybody would use a reepschnur with two rated ropes tied together, even a 6 mm tag line as one of the lines. 

I understand why a guide needs to deal with an incompetent rappeler, but what happened to the idea that you get good at rappelling and learn multipitch systems and self rescue BEFORE you go out on big long routes? Seems like a step in the training is missing.

Greg D wrote:

Since you mention lead line and skinny retrieval line, I suspect you are thinking of something different than a reepshnur. Please prove me wrong. 

It seems like you may be mistaken regarding what the reepschnur method is.  I'm referring to the technique where you first pass the lead line through the anchor, tie a bight knot, and clip the lead line back to itself with a carabiner, then attach a smaller retrieval cord to the tail or the bight of the lead line.

What did you think I meant?

"Greg D wrote:

I agree, this is why I commented in the first place.  I'm seeing more and more climbers using the technique when better alternatives exist.  I assume folks are seeing tech tips like the video you quoted and looking for ways to lighten up their kits, but uncomfortable committing to skinny rap lines. 

In one of the incidents I mentioned the rescued party was using an 8+mm line for the retrieval cord and a 9+mm lead line.  To me there is absolutely no reason to use a reepschnur in that situation.  

In another incident the stuck party was using 4mm retrieval cord.  In this case I would recommend paying the weight penalty for something like the Esprit and rapping both strands.

Kevin Worrall wrote:

“Why are you rappelling with this person?”

Nice! 

Sam Keller wrote:

I understand why a guide needs to deal with an incompetent rappeler, but what happened to the idea that you get good at rappelling and learn multipitch systems and self rescue BEFORE you go out on big long routes? Seems like a step in the training is missing.

Even when I'm guiding I prefer my client to know how to rappel prior to do multipitch rappels. However, this can sometimes be avoided by lowering the client instead.

Philip Magistro wrote:

It seems like you may be mistaken regarding what the reepschnur method is.  I'm referring to the technique where you first pass the lead line through the anchor, tie a bight knot, and clip the lead line back to itself with a carabiner, then attach a smaller retrieval cord to the tail or the bight of the lead line.

What did you think I meant?

"Greg D wrote:

I agree, this is why I commented in the first place.  I'm seeing more and more climbers using the technique when better alternatives exist.  I assume folks are seeing tech tips like the video you quoted and looking for ways to lighten up their kits, but uncomfortable committing to skinny rap lines. 

In one of the incidents I mentioned the rescued party was using an 8+mm line for the retrieval cord and a 9+mm lead line.  To me there is absolutely no reason to use a reepschnur in that situation.  

In another incident the stuck party was using 4mm retrieval cord.  In this case I would recommend paying the weight penalty for something like the Esprit and rapping both strands.

How do you rap both strands with a grigri? Legitimately asking because if there is a better way I am down.