Why shouldn't we all use the GigaJul?

The case for the GigaJul:

What I value is weight, and safety. The Grigri is bombproof, and I use it in the gym and at the sport crag. But it is too heavy for a multipitch trad setting, and can't belay/rap twin/half ropes even if it were lighter. It is not versatile enough.

An ATC Guide is about the lightest option, which is great. For ascending/lowering/rapping, or even belaying from above, it is safe in guide mode, and/or can always be backed up. Except for when belaying the leader. In fact, I've always been shocked that gyms allow brand new climbers to go belaying their friends unsupervised with an ATC. We always go on about redundancy, yet the ATC retains is popularity. This makes sense, I suppose, because it so light, so simple, and so versatile.

A compromise between these options that I've read is for a pair of climbers to bring one ATC Guide and one grigri or similar. Or maybe they both have an ATC so both can rap, I'm not sure. But that way, you have an locking device to belay the leader, and a light, versatile device for other applications where it is more safe.

This brings us to the gigajul. It can do all of this in one package. Why don't more people use it? Because it's weird and somewhat complex? Should I not use one? It's and ATC when you need it, and it has brake assist for belaying the leader. (There is also the mega jul, but that has enough problems to make it seem irrelevant to the discussion)

The weight is the only thing I don't like. Lighter than a grigri, but about as much as 2 ATCs.

Thoughts?

My follower typically belays me on lead with a grigri, and I belay him from the anchor using an ATC guide. But as you stated, we both carry ATC’s to rap down. But it’s a system we both enjoy, and have had zero issues. I guess bringing 3 belay devices seems excessive, but we always have a back up if we drop one. Also when I belay him as a leader, I use an ATC, purely because I don’t enjoy using a grigri much. But if a leader feels more confident with me using a grigri I would have no qualms about it. 

The Grigri is bombproof, and I used it in the gym and at the sport crag. But it is too heavy for a multipitch trad setting 

The weight is the only thing I don't like. Lighter than a grigri, but about as much as 2 ATCs.

This is just not true - you have to consider the whole system, not just the device:

Giga Jul + 2x DMM Phantom: 122 grams + 46 grams = 206 grams

Gri Gri + DMM Phantom: 175 grams + 42 grams = 217 grams

The Phantom is not a great carabiner for the Giga Jul, I just used it for ease of comparison. If you use appropriate carabiners for the Giga Jul the weights work out to nearly equal. I use my Gri Gri for multipitch climbing whenever possible, it's awesome and no heavier than the alternative! You make some good points, though. if you need to use double ropes the Giga Jul sounds great. Maybe devices like this will fully displace the ATC Guide eventually.

Nathan Bilthuis wrote:

My follower typically belays me on lead with a grigri, and I belay him from the anchor using an ATC guide. But as you stated, we both carry ATC’s to rap down. But it’s a system we both enjoy, and have had zero issues. I guess bringing 3 belay devices seems excessive, but we always have a back up if we drop one. Also when I belay him as a leader, I use an ATC, purely because I don’t enjoy using a grigri much. But if a leader feels more confident with me using a grigri I would have no qualms about it. 

That makes sense. I suppose that even in that case, though, the grigri could be replaced by a GigaJul, giving a net weight saving, and would still allow both of you to rap in the usual way if one ATC was dropped.

I'm not trying to critique your approach, though, if it works it works. I should have mentioned that I have mountaineering applications in mind, where the approach alone is often difficult enough to encourage gram-counting (imagine carrying the gear to stay 4 nights atop a 6kft gain approach). If I'm out for a day trip with a modest approach, I'll still bring the love of my life, the grigri <3

Joe Hollowed wrote:

The case for the GigaJul:

What I value is weight, and safety. The Grigri is bombproof, and I use it in the gym and at the sport crag. But it is too heavy for a multipitch trad setting, and can't belay/rap twin/half ropes even if it were lighter. It is not versatile enough.

An ATC Guide is about the lightest option, which is great. For ascending/lowering/rapping, or even belaying from above, it is safe in guide mode, and/or can always be backed up. Except for when belaying the leader. In fact, I've always been shocked that gyms allow brand new climbers to go belaying their friends unsupervised with an ATC. We always go on about redundancy, yet the ATC retains is popularity. This makes sense, I suppose, because it so light, so simple, and so versatile.

A compromise between these options that I've read is for a pair of climbers to bring one ATC Guide and one grigri or similar. Or maybe they both have an ATC so both can rap, I'm not sure. But that way, you have an locking device to belay the leader, and a light, versatile device for other applications where it is more safe.

This brings us to the gigajul. It can do all of this in one package. Why don't more people use it? Because it's weird and somewhat complex? Should I not use one? It's and ATC when you need it, and it has brake assist for belaying the leader. (There is also the mega jul, but that has enough problems to make it seem irrelevant to the discussion)

The weight is the only thing I don't like. Lighter than a grigri, but about as much as 2 ATCs.

Thoughts?

Check out the Smart Alpine from Mammut. There's two versions wide and narrow, I have both but mostly use the narrow, works great with 9.6 ropes.

Alexander Blum wrote:

This is just not true - you have to consider the whole system, not just the device:

Giga Jul + 2x DMM Phantom: 122 grams + 46 grams = 206 grams

Gri Gri + DMM Phantom: 175 grams + 42 grams = 217 grams

Hmm, but you haven't accounted for the fact that with that grigri setup, you also may need to carry an ATC and 2x biners for raps. Of course, you will know whether or not that is the case in advance for your route, but still.

My partner has a gigajul and I have used it fairly extensively. Its a good device, but definitely has a learning curve to belay properly. It doesn't work that well with ropes 9.5 and over to payout slack. I haven't used anything under 8.7 with it, but it worked fine for that thickness. For the weight I don't really care. It has the steel insert which is awesome for wear/keeping your rope clean. I think you could more easily save weight in other areas if thats a big concern. I think the rappel thing isn't a big deal because you can always biner block, or simul rappel with a grigri. Currently I use a grigri for basicially everything, but I probably won't buy another considering the cost of a grigri vs a gigajul. I also am looking into the smart alpine as another option. 

Joe Hollowed wrote:

Hmm, but you haven't accounted for the fact that with that grigri setup, you also may need to carry an ATC and 2x biners for raps. Of course, you will know whether or not that is the case in advance for your route, but still.

That's a good point, but easy to account for -  as you point out, you will know what's needed ahead of time (is the route a walk-off or rappel?). Use a different setup when needed, but use the light, convenient, and bomber Gri Gri solution all the other times. The Giga Jul + Gri Gri (one for each partner) setup would work in every situation where 2x Gri Gri won't work. There is never a situation (IMO) where carrying 3x belay devices between partners is a necessary solution. It's not much extraneous weight, but it's still extraneous weight.

You also only need 1x ATC biner if only using for rapelling. The 2nd biner is for guide mode belaying.

I always bring an ATC on commiting multi, or on something requiring multiple raps, but if you have a walkoff, you can just bring the gri gri. There are at least 3 ways to rap with a grigri if you need to, and if your partner has an atc it only slows things down by the amount of time needed to undo a clove hitch.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

This brings us to the gigajul. It can do all of this in one package. Why don't more people use it? Because it's weird and somewhat complex? Should I not use one? It's and ATC when you need it, and it has brake assist for belaying the leader. (There is also the mega jul, but that has enough problems to make it seem irrelevant to the discussion)

The weight is the only thing I don't like. Lighter than a grigri, but about as much as 2 ATCs.

Thoughts?

I don't like any of the Juls because of the hand position.  I use an Alpine Smart exclusively outdoors because it is a ABD, I can rap off 2 strands, and I can use it in guide mode.  The Alpine gets my hand a little further away from the rope and had a larger lever for control, at the expense of a bit of weight.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

A compromise between these options that I've read is for a pair of climbers to bring one ATC Guide and one grigri or similar. Or maybe they both have an ATC so both can rap, I'm not sure. 

The system calls for 2 devices total. The leader is belayed on a Grigri, the follower is belayed on the ATC in guide mode. To rappel fix the line at the midpoint with a bight, Grigri raps first on 1 strand, 2nd person undoes the bight and raps both stands with a fireman belay. 2 devices, everyone is always backed up. 

This brings us to the gigajul. It can do all of this in one package. Why don't more people use it? 

The issue with all the assisted devices is that they are very sensitive to rope/carabiner choice and never seem to do everything well in my experience. My Alpine Up locks my 7.8mm doubles well and feeds rope fine, but rappelling in lock mode is painful, guide mode less than ideal as well. The Giga doesn't lock those ropes on rappel. These things frustrate me enough to bring separate devices (a Micro Jul to lead belay, a Gigi [not Grigri] for guide belay, and a prusik to rap in non-lock mode) so that everything works well. It's not a clean solution but it doesn't weigh much. 

The Grigri does everything well so long as it's one strand. Guide mode could lock a bit better and I'm not sure about the cam on icy ropes. But it's a good device, there's a reason it's popular. 

If you find a rope/carbiner setup and assisted belay device that works well, by all means use it. They just haven't lived up to their promises to me. 

Stitch plate, if you drop it, Munter Hitch.

Every time I looked into the giga, it sounds like my smart alpine handles guide mode smoother. Less effort than an ATC guide on thicker ropes by far, which sounds similar based on my reading to the giga (as in giga=ATC for guide effort). 

Bummed they won't be coming out with a smart alpine 2.0.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

Hmm, but you haven't accounted for the fact that with that grigri setup, you also may need to carry an ATC and 2x biners for raps. Of course, you will know whether or not that is the case in advance for your route, but still.

If you rap with an ATC you should only need 1x biner not 2x, but why would you need to carry another one instead of reusing one of the biners you already have with you. In that case it would just be the extra weight of an ATC. Or you could just rap with a grigri and not carry the ATC at all.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

That makes sense. I suppose that even in that case, though, the grigri could be replaced by a GigaJul, giving a net weight saving, and would still allow both of you to rap in the usual way if one ATC was dropped.

I'm not trying to critique your approach, though, if it works it works. I should have mentioned that I have mountaineering applications in mind, where the approach alone is often difficult enough to encourage gram-counting (imagine carrying the gear to stay 4 nights atop a 6kft gain approach). If I'm out for a day trip with a modest approach, I'll still bring the love of my life, the grigri <3

When I’m not cragging at devils lake, my home and love, then I’m destination climbing. Not quite alpine, but remote nonetheless. And often with plans of 10-13 days. So I definitely Understand the need for counting ounces. But I’m careful with the weight I cut. If I cut food out, I’m a little hungry. If I cut water out, I’m thirsty. If I cut out life saving equipment, I could fall to my death. Not saying that’s anywhere near the case with not having a grigri, or even a belay device at all. You can always use a Munster hitch, or doubled and crossed biners. But it’s just the general approach I take to not only keep myself, but also my follower safe in any situation we may find out young dumb selves in. I wouldn’t be against using a different device and saving weight. I just don’t feel the need to spend the money. If I could have a pound, I’d be all in. That just isn’t the case. But you have piqued my interest in the device, and I’ll be looking into it when I inevitably drop my grigri into the depths of the earth one day.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

Hmm, but you haven't accounted for the fact that with that grigri setup, you also may need to carry an ATC and 2x biners for raps. Of course, you will know whether or not that is the case in advance for your route, but still.

If your partner has an ATC then you only need a grigri. Set the rap as normal, fix one end of the rope, rap that single strand with the grigri, follower undoes the fixed knot and descends as normal on their atc. No need for a biner block or any other trickery. 

If both climbers want to bring only a grigri, then either fight it out in the parking lot over who brings the atc instead (reminding them that the leaders can share the grigri for belaying the leader and the leader can belay using the ATC in guide mode from the top), or else just simulrap with each on their grigri on opposing strands. 

And don't forget that the grigri is not the only grigri-like device. The madrock lifeguard is lighter at 154g (though it's not the best for multiple raps since the metal handle gets hot) 

Why should we?

Steve Williams wrote:

Why should we?

He laid out his case for it in the initial post. 

I feel as if this thread could be deleted and nobody would miss it. Amirite?

I’m curious, as someone who has never used the giga, any negatives to it? It seems like a lot of people have explained how to deal with having a grigri and atc, but no one has really argued against the giga

M M wrote:

I feel as if this thread could be deleted and nobody would miss it. Amirite?

Maybe you misunderstood.  This is a forum for discussing all things climbing.

I learned about the giga jul from an MP thread.   I was burning through about 1 ATC a season.   It's my favorite belay device + I feel much more secure getting belayed with a locking (semi-locking for the safety Nazis) device than an ATC.