Camp photon is junk

I have a lot of Photons, never had a problem with them. I think they have the higher tension, because they don't feel floppy at all.

This week I made a bit of a wipper and the top carabiner (photon) nose hooked on the bolt. It didn't break! No damage to see actually. It's now my lucky carabiner I guess.

Chris C wrote:

OP should contact the Hownotohighline folks to test this vs other carabiners, would be interesting.

Hmmmm, with the gate closed its gonna functions like a normal carabiner during a pull test. With the gate not engaged its gonna break like a carabiner without the gate enagaged....

The scenario that got that photon in this situation has a myriad of variables which likely have no much merit to test in a functional manner. Perhaps though, you have an idea as to how to test this? if so please drop the beta.

In an interview with Weigh my Rack, Metolius founder Doug Phillips explained that metolius carabiners are optimized for open gate strength and they have sharp nose angles to minimize the risk of failure under adverse loading conditions.

https://blog.weighmyrack.com/11-things-i-learned-touring-metolius/

Doug explained, “It’d be easy to make a 20g carabiner, but we add weight back in. We want higher strengths.”

Metolius always designs their carabiners to create the highest open-gate strength possible because that’s the most likely (low-probability) failing situation. They also design for very angled carabiner heads. The premise for the sharp angle is that the weakest point on the carabiner is the nose. You want to decrease the possibility of the carabiner hanging on the nose by encouraging the bolt/rope/whatever to transfer its load as close to the major axis as possible. Although they don’t design specifically for closed gate strength, the numbers have always turned out well above the standards by designing to open-gate specifications.

With its shallow nose angle, thin nose profile and extra large gate, the CAMP photon epitomizes the opposite of the design principles stated by Doug here. The result is a carabiner that is more likely to fail with torqued, cross loaded, tri-loaded or levered against an edge. They are also more prone to inadvertently nose-hooking. 

The camp photon carabiners also had manufacturing flaws in some batches making them prone to low gate tension and sticky gate action, increasing the risk of an open gate condition. It's not surprising at all that there seem to be more anecdotal reports of these carabiners failing than other designs.

For these reasons I don't use camp photons for clipping lead pro anymore. I own quite a few and I just use them as bail biners these days.

I think you can add the Mammut Moses 'biner to the junk list.

I had a couple weak gate photons. Sold/replaced. They gave me a free replacement that I use as a shoe/bail biner.

I always liked the high open gate strength of the $$ DMM and WCs also. 

Desert Rock Sports wrote:

A protected nose design on a wiregate (Chimera, Helium, Oz) does not prevent this, it makes it a bit less likely. It can still happen. Wires have a lot of play and can be forced easily by hand... while the forces that can be generated while climbing, or falling, are much higher. Solid gates are harder to force by hand, but it has still happened before to people.

I agree. Once the gate is pushed open enough to take the wire out of the notch any wire can be bent laterally. A wide "clean" nose means you're less likely to catch the tip of the gate and have the carabiner open, but the whole rest of the gate remains exposed and something catching it can open the biner/expose the gate to lateral forces. 

A locking carabiner is the only real solution if you find yourself in situations like this often. 

Personally I think Photons (and Nanos) are great. It's not a money issue to me and I have plenty of clean nose biners depending on the application, but the dirty CAMPs are lighter and the Photon handles really well IMO. It's big and nice with gloves on. 

The nose on the CAMPs are less likely to snag on a gear loop/cord/sling/bolt when trying to remove than other dirty nose wire carabiners I have tried. There is more to it than the angle of the carabiner. If you look at the notch on the CAMPs it's a small recess with raised edges on both sides whereas others have a well defined "hook." Just slide your finger along the inner surface, it's pretty easy to see which is more likely to catch. 

At the end of the day what we're looking at is a carabiner that held multiple falls likely on an open gate while awkwardly placed and rubbing against rock. Result? No overt failure. For 30 grams. I think we've got it pretty good in terms of gear these days.  

Camp photons blow

Photons rock!!

climberz wrote:

Please stop buying these, I really don’t want to use these anymore and partners often have them.  

If we don't climb together can I keep my photons?

J B wrote:

In an interview with Weigh my Rack, Metolius founder Doug Phillips explained that metolius carabiners are optimized for open gate strength and they have sharp nose angles to minimize the risk of failure under adverse loading conditions.

https://blog.weighmyrack.com/11-things-i-learned-touring-metolius/

With its shallow nose angle, thin nose profile and extra large gate, the CAMP photon epitomizes the opposite of the design principles stated by Doug here. The result is a carabiner that is more likely to fail with torqued, cross loaded, tri-loaded or levered against an edge. They are also more prone to inadvertently nose-hooking. 

The camp photon carabiners also had manufacturing flaws in some batches making them prone to low gate tension and sticky gate action, increasing the risk of an open gate condition. It's not surprising at all that there seem to be more anecdotal reports of these carabiners failing than other designs.

For these reasons I don't use camp photons for clipping lead pro anymore. I own quite a few and I just use them as bail biners these days.

It seems like the Camp Photon has been redesigned and is now much more looking in shape like the Metolius.

https://weighmyrack.com/carabiner/camp-photon-wire

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

It seems like the Camp Photon has been redesigned and is now much more looking in shape like the Metolius.

https://weighmyrack.com/carabiner/camp-photon-wire

This looks just like the DMM Phantom, or vice versa ;)

Check out the 9:08 minute mark

Nathan Doyle wrote:

Check out the 9:08 minute mark

Interesting that the Photon wire gate came off the notch at ~12 kN (while axially loaded, with nothing touching the wire gate).  

I found it a little strange that the video maker didn’t mention that the carabiner failed well below the minimum MBS required for climbing carabiners.  I guess there is a conflict of interest here because they seem to be trying to use the video sell gear, including Photons.

FWIW, I stopped using Photons for fall protection, after having issues with the gates sticking open.  Lots of people have used them without issue, but I definitely wouldn’t recommend them for fall protection over other carabiners.  

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

have you tried a good ol’ carabiner boil?? 

I stopped using them for a multitude of safety concerns.  It was just the sticky gates that led me to the realization that the Photons have a bunch of “issues“ that make them less safe for fall protection than other carabiners, even if I did reduce the stickiness of the gates.  

Even when the gate closes, and nothing is directly forcing the gate open, it is too easy to pop the gate out, as illustrated in the video above. They are also more prone to nose hooking.  They are also relatively weak, when they are subjected to out-of-plane loading.  

In real life, carabiners are subject to out-of-plane loading and forces on the gates that are not captured in the carabiner certification requirements. 

Nathan Doyle wrote:

Check out the 9:08 minute mark

Before it broke at 12 kn it had survived a 22 kn pull (its MBS). May have been deformed in that pull so I’m not sure this video has much to tell us. 

Photons are dangerous. Use of Photons displays a wanton, reckless disregard for human life. You can send your Photons to me for an eco-friendly proper disposal. 

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

John V wrote:

Before it broke at 12 kn it had survived a 22 kn pull (its MBS). May have been deformed in that pull so I’m not sure this video has much to tell us. 

This is the correct answer.
That thing was already deformed so much by the time it failed. As it is the biggest out of the lot, that makes sense we would see the greatest deviation in shape.... Suggesting that's why out of all of them it was the only one to have the wire come off the nose due to the deformation.

Photons are perfectly safe. All of those carabiners were.
I choose my wire gates on features like gate opening, and I really hate a carabiner that nose hooks so biners like the ange, hoodwire, etc are the choice for me.

Demetri V wrote:

...You’ll never generate 7kN climbing.

...

Rarely; but not never.

John V wrote:

Before it broke at 12 kn it had survived a 22 kn pull (its MBS). May have been deformed in that pull so I’m not sure this video has much to tell us. 

There was likely some plastic deformation on all of the carabiners that survived the first test, but only one carabiner had the gate pop out of the notch at loads below the MBS during subsequent tests, and that was the Photon.  The gate just doesn’t sit as securely in notch as other carabiner designs, with or without prior plastic deformation.

Karl Henize wrote:

There was likely some plastic deformation on all of the carabiners that survived the first test, but only one carabiner had the gate pop out of the notch at loads below the MBS during subsequent tests, and that was the Photon.  The gate just doesn’t sit as securely in notch as other carabiner designs, with or without prior plastic deformation.

Linking these two sentences causally results in a hypothesis that might be testable under controlled conditions. Mistaking this video for such testing is a misapplication of “backyard science” (despite the many appropriate disclaimers in the video). Ryan doesn’t make a big deal out of the Photon result because he understands this. 

If you pay attention, later in the video they are more careful about making sure the gates are fully closed. After deformation the gate doesn't quite line up with the hook anymore, leading to them being unopenable or having to force the gate fully closed, one or the other of these happens to most of the latter ones. Likely the photon was just the unlucky first one to highlight this issue.