RollNLock and Petzl microcender as top tope solo set up

Hi,

I am buying gear to get into top rope soloing and i am following the guide from Petzl see link: petzl website. But i want to use a RollNLock instead of a micro traxion since it has a smaller form factor. But i am wondering if this is safe, since the Microcender and RollNLock both use a camming system to lock up. And the micro trax uses teeth + camming action to lock up. Next to this it seems it is a bit more likely to put the RollNLock in pull mode by accident than the Micro traxion, since the lever to do this is more hidden in the Micro traxion. What do you guys think?

Personally I think it should be fine, but hoping to hear opinions on this from people who are a bit more knowledgeable in this area :)

Best,
Thomas

It’s a legit setup, amongst many other legit TRS setups.

2 micros is common.

I use pro trax  and a micro.

YGD.

I recently added Rollnlock to my setup. It’s my favorite, I feel totally comfortable with it. So now I use Rollnlock and microtrx

I’ve read about several people using this set up with roll n lock as primary since it is toothless. 

Shure sounds good to me I’d go on it. I’ve been using twin CT’s for double ropes I use ovals so there is less chance of cross loading they run very smoothly on the rope. If your doing single line you can space both devices run one low on a leg loop to limit the chance of the devices crashing into each other. Sometimes I’ll run a old rope man1 on a leg loop and a roll n lock up top.

Hope it helps 

They no longer make the microcender, look elsewhere if you cant find one used. 

As mentioned earlier if you get the roll n lock twisted it won't catch, I took an unexpected ride to my stopper knot because of this. I have found that I can't reliably do a route that angles much. And if I put my rope around my leg to get it out of the way, like I would leading, it also will often fail to lock. 

It works, but for me I don't trust it the most and if I TR soloed much anymore I would replace it with the micro Trax pretty quick. 

Read the manufacturers recommendations!  Our SAR team is not permitting members to use the CT Roll-N-Lock as a personal ascender. On one side it is marked 4KN, on the other side it shows 20KN / 10 KN per side. I believe the 20KN is ultimate breaking strength and 4KN is the rated use (cam and other parts) .  Use at your own risk.

jc5462 wrote:

Read the manufacturers recommendations!  Our SAR team is not permitting members to use the CT Roll-N-Lock as a personal ascender. On one side it is marked 4KN, on the other side it shows 20KN / 10 KN per side. I believe the 20KN is ultimate breaking strength and 4KN is the rated use (cam and other parts) .  Use at your own risk.

you are correct the rope grab portion is rated to 4kn before potential rope damage. 20kn is UBS. From my experience mostperonal ascender start messing rope up at around 4kn mark.

What do you use as your personal ascender that has a higher rating on rope than 4kn? 

FYI - most toothed devices are limited to 4 kN by their manufacturers because that is the point where sheathes begin to show damage. Some are even less…

curt86iroc wrote:

FYI - most toothed devices are limited to 4 kN by their manufacturers because that is the point where sheathes begin to show damage. Some are even less…

that's why I'm asking the question pf what there SAR team chooses to use. It seems like most would fall out of favor then.

Thomas Hoek wrote: Next to this it seems it is a bit more likely to put the RollNLock in pull mode by accident than the Micro traxion, since the lever to do this is more hidden in the Micro traxion.

By “pull mode” do you mean having the teeth/cam engaged?

If so, then I can report that no, the RollNLock has never accidentally engaged to grab the the rope for me. But the microtrax is always wanting to engage with the slightest brush of that hidden button.

It’s actually a little annoying for me because my  setup is optimized around lowering the fastest. I have two fixed strands (like your petzl guide), but I put both devices on one stand. Then at the top I throw a gri-gri on my other strand, disengage the teeth and cam of the microtrax and rollnlock, and then lower. The transitions are super quick, and when I hit the bottom, I just pull off the gri gri and re-engage the devices and I’m good to climb...but sometimes that microtrax likes to reengage while I’m zipping down the other strand

Mr Rogers wrote:

that's why I'm asking the question pf what there SAR team chooses to use. It seems like most would fall out of favor then.

all of the SAR teams I work with generally use tandem prusiks for rescue loads and toothed/clamp devices for personal loads (1-2kN).  

Some use rigs, d4 or clutches to tension high lines, but loads are generally well controlled in these applications. 

curt86iroc wrote:

all of the SAR teams I work with generally use tandem prusiks for rescue loads and toothed/clamp devices for personal loads (1-2kN).  

Some use rigs, d4 or clutches to tension high lines, but loads are generally well controlled in these applications. 

Now I am more confused!
You said you don't use the RNL, which is a tooth/clamp/caming device, because of its 4kn rating for personal ascension.
Here you are saying you DO use toothed/clamp devices for personal loads (personal ascension would fall under this).
So, my understanding is the RNL should be fine for personal ascension based upon what is stated above as most all toothed devices mess rope at at 4kn+.
I'm going to guess your not ascending with your prusiks, but are using them as progress capture in a haul system for a litter or something in tandem with some PMP's.

So again, why not the RNL? Is it because someone is confused in your local SAR group over the printed rating on the device or something??

Mr Rogers wrote:

Now I am more confused!??

I think you are confusing Curt for the JC guy who said that about the RNL and hasn’t responded

JM Addleman wrote:

I think you are confusing Curt for the JC guy who said that about the RNL and hasn’t responded

Lol you are correct. SMH.

Sorry I have not responded for a while, I have been dealing with some family issues.

In SAR systems we use tandem 8mm Prussi. I have used Gibbs and Petzl rescuescenders in cave rescue with muddy ropes.  Standard ascenders are allowed for personal ascending only. Only other loads I have had was doing counter balance hauling for pick off rescue. I have used the following brand/models over my 38 years.

Petzl ascension. Folded sheet aluminum design Probably the most popular 

Jumar. Cast aluminum design. Smoothest action, best to rig with “Yosemite rigging”. These are no longer available 

CMI shortly. Strong extruded design. Many users complaints about safety gates being hard to operate with one hand   

KONG Ultraascenders. Aluminum design. Minimal size and weight. Rated for 8-13mm ropes. I have found very difficult using on 1/2” rope. I initially purchased for SAR but with difficulty on 1/2” ropes. These are my preferred caving ascenders.

KONG lift. Aluminum, similar to Petzl.

KONG maglia aluminum with hinged handle for positive bite on iced or muddy ropes. My prior caving ascenders. We’re popular for mountaineering.

Ushba. Titanium design rocker cam design. Can also be used on steel cable.

KONG pro cave. Aluminum similar to Petzl.  Larger handle allows two handed grip. My current SAR ascenders.

RNL, KONG frog, Wid Country ropeman, Petzl tibloc. Micro ascenders 

Gibbs, CMI rope walker, Fusion puma. Aluminum shell design that must be disassembled to apply/remove from rope. No handle. 

Earlier this year we had some members who were using the RNL and there was some team leaders stating that these were not “Rated” for ascending systems. So there has been lots of discussion.

I have top rope soloed using Petzl croll, Petzl ascension, Ushba, Gri-Gri,prussiks clove hitch, soloist , solo-aid and silent partner. I personally wouldn’t use micro ascenders for top rope solo (That’s just my opinion) the croll and ascension I have used for aid solo with fixed line belay. I really like Ushba. Silent partner for lead solo. I sold my Solo-aid as I didn’t see much advantage vs cost compared with clove hitch. 

jacob m s wrote:

As mentioned earlier if you get the roll n lock twisted it won't catch, I took an unexpected ride to my stopper knot because of this. I have found that I can't reliably do a route that angles much. And if I put my rope around my leg to get it out of the way, like I would leading, it also will often fail to lock. 

It works, but for me I don't trust it the most and if I TR soloed much anymore I would replace it with the micro Trax pretty quick. 

Were you using only one device? My system right now is a roll n lock on top and microtrax as a backup. It seems like this configuration keeps everything in line but I haven't done many routes that angle too hard on TR solo. How does the rope have to be oriented to fail on the roll n lock?

Tamiban Gueterstan wrote:

Some SAR teams have ridiculous archaic MBS standards usually steming from worship/misinterpretation of the NFPA-G standard by their leadership or some local governing body. This mostly stems from the limited education and training, which itself stems from SAR being mostly volunteer or a side specialty of firefighting. The bright line rules of "do it this way, and only this way" are safe and good enough. Only the well funded municipal fire departments, exceptionally well-run departments, rope wizards, and wilderness junkies who do it for their own interest adopt the newer techniques which slowly get trickled down and become the norm.

Well put. What local SAR uses is frequently older methods, YOSAR probably uses the most modern techniques and equipment I would guess.

I like the Camp Lift for the once in a while TR solo, used either with backup knots or a toothed device below

I'd choose a Micro Traxion (on oval carabiners) over a RollNLock every time. I have a RollNLock and a Traxion and the the Traxion is a tool, where the RollNLock little more than a plausible convenience. I won't climb anymore on a RollNLock. The RollNLock:

• doesn't move up the rope near as smoothly (youll need a slightly heavier bottom weight)
• doesn't trap the rope as well so sideways movements are a problem
• tends to twist more
• is more fussy about what carabiner it likes
• is bulkier
• has a very exposed cam which can hit objects
• it can be accidently locked open

The Traxion is as good as it gets currently for progress capture. It superiority is not in its strength alone, but in it design and efficiency. It doesn't need bulk because it efficiency allows it to really move up with the climber. Sure, the RollNLock will sort of do that too, but every other time it hanging this, trailing that way, twisting the other way, interfering with the carabiner....
I use two on a single rope and raise the top one with a chest/neck rig. Yes, on a rope of normal thickness, it is only rated to 4kn, but because it runs up the rope so well, there'll be no slack. I've found that even dynos are possible. Be sure to only ever use dynamic rope so that the rope too absorbs the forces and not the device you choose.  If you have two Traxions then you can always carry one when not soloing for rescuing, hauling or even belaying up the 2nd, yes Petzl state this is okay, with limitations.

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-the-second-with-a-MICRO-TRAXION--beware-of-any-fall?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing

The entire toothed rope damage thing is complete rubbish IMO. Other factors will wear your rope out fast. The teeth only serve to keep the cam in place until the cam clips the rope. A RollNLocks will strip and rope too in any case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvImwt_Cgwo

Many Traxion users fill of the nub so the device can't be locked open. I do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIzYpZJgi8Y

A Taz Lov2 is the best overall device for TRS, but even it will not progress capture was well as a Traxion.

Whatever you use, always put some backup knots! With practice, you'll be able to tie one-handed slip knots, just make sure the slip knot is locking in right direction and cinch the down.