Permanent tree rap stations

I've noticed that the majority of tree rap stations I've encountered consist of webbing wrapped around the tree a few times, threaded through a rap ring, and tied together with a fisherman's. Why do most people use this method vs. Building a master point. I get that multiple tree wraps disperses the weight better, but wouldn't the added redundancy of a masterpoint make for a safer anchor? Especially when these slings are worn to hell and look like they're about to tear. 

There are a few anchors in my area that desperately could use a touch up. Considering the best options. 

I'm not sure what the BEST option for the wrapping itself is - actually multiple wrapp around the WHOLE tree is probably pretty bad in the long run, because as the tree grows it slowly strangles itself the death.

However, the best option climbing-wise would be to cut off & pack out the old sling and replace with a new one. Also gives the bark a breather and more room to grow. As far I know, you just want the knot to be on the tree (NOT in the loop you clip). That's pretty much the safety feature/redundancy (a few wrap makes enough friction so that there's basically no force on the knot). Unsure why you need/want redundancy on the sling itself. If it looks bad, replace it. Otherwise a webbing strand is way enough for rappel...

EDIT: something like the one on the right (can add a few more wraps if you want):

Hmm, the ones I've found around here have multiple slings, wrapped once and loose, with a ring or mallion as a master point.  I'm not sure if that's good for the tree (since all the weight is likely on one single-wrapped sling) but it's not going anywhere, and it's loose so the tree can grow.

Franck Vee wrote:

I've used the anchor on the right but with an extra wrap.  I think it's called the "Wrap 3 Pull 2".  Like in the photo the knot should stay between the strands.  The nice thing about this setup is the friction reduces a lot of pull on the knot but the anchor isn't redundant.

Franck Vee wrote:

I'm not sure what the BEST option for the wrapping itself is - actually multiple wrapp around the WHOLE tree is probably pretty bad in the long run, because as the tree grows it slowly strangles itself the death.

However, the best option climbing-wise would be to cut off & pack out the old sling and replace with a new one. Also gives the bark a breather and more room to grow. As far I know, you just want the knot to be on the tree (NOT in the loop you clip). That's pretty much the safety feature/redundancy (a few wrap makes enough friction so that there's basically no force on the knot). Unsure why you need/want redundancy on the sling itself. If it looks bad, replace it. Otherwise a webbing strand is way enough for rappel...

The scenario I was trying to describe (which I usually see) has all wraps of the tree running through a rap ring (or biner) and loose, allowing the tree plenty of room to grow. 

As far as adding the master point, I understand the slings alone are sufficient.  I'm just curious why many opt to not add a masterpoint. Added redundancy with minimal extra effort. 

Isn't multiple pieces of webbing going through the rings redundant enough? If you tie an overhand in the whole wad of slings to create a master point, it's a lot more bulky and more of a pain in the ass to remove/replace individuall pieces of webbing.

slim wrote:

Isn't multiple pieces of webbing going through the rings redundant enough? If you tie an overhand in the whole wad of slings to create a master point, it's a lot more bulky and more of a pain in the ass to remove/replace individuall pieces of webbing.

Which anchor setup are you referring to?  A tree with a bunch of tat or a Wrap 3 and Pull 2?

If the W3P2, then yeah, I suppose if you had enough slack you could make a master point and create redundancy.  Oddly, I got this anchor setup for a Search and Rescue guide a few years back and I don't recall it showing a master point or a backup. :-/

Cut off the oldest sling(s), add one of your own, if only one rap ring, add another as well. Consider armoring the tree bark if a well used site. I have learned from others here that erosion of the cliff edge and soil compaction of the trees roots can be a problem too.

Gumby King wrote:

Which anchor setup are you referring to?  A tree with a bunch of tat or a Wrap 3 and Pull 2?

If the W3P2, then yeah, I suppose if you had enough slack you could make a master point and create redundancy.  Oddly, I got this anchor setup for a Search and Rescue guide a few years back and I don't recall it showing a master point or a backup. :-/

SAR would be using another whole tree for a backup.

Adding knots reduces the webbing strength, adding a wrap that go thru the rings doubles the strength.

The picture shows wrap 2 pull 1. Somewhere between 27 and 36 Kn.  in 1" tube.

If you did a wrap 3 pull 2. the loop strength of 1" tube would be around 50 Kn.

Of course if a cat pissed on the webbing, or you find yourself in a knife storm, perhaps a master point is in order.

The tree’s the one taking all the risk.  

If you’re worried about rappel redundancy from large trees (outside of clearly deteriorated tat), then you must also install a roll bar in your car, a 5 pt safety harness seat belt, and wear Nomex and a helmet on the the drive to/from the crag to keep your risk tolerance on an even keel. 

It's a good sign in a way that a lot of times when discussing climbing procedures, redundancy & backing things up comes up often. I guess this means that for a lot of people, those notions are top of mind. Perhaps it means that we're not THAT bad as a community about shaping our collective consciousness for things that matter.

Although this discussion also shows where we lack - a lot of times those redundancy/backup discussions end up trying to backup things without knowing why (or even if it is necessary to), or missing redundancy in the places where it would actually matter more. The tree is hidding the forest (boom-tsk).

Can someone explain how a master point off of a single tree and sling would create redundancy?

Really trying to 'wrap' my head around this.

Thanks.

Igor Chained wrote:

Can someone explain how a master point off of a single tree and sling would create redundancy?

Really trying to 'wrap' my head around this.

Thanks.

A tree has multiple roots that add redundancy ;-P

Igor Chained wrote:

Can someone explain how a master point off of a single tree and sling would create redundancy?

Really trying to 'wrap' my head around this.

Thanks.

If you tie a knot including more than one loop than you could cut one of the strands and the anchor would hold. Without the knot it will no longer be attached to anything. It creates redundancy within the anchor but is not a “redundant anchor” as it will fail if the tree is removed from the system. A less cumbersome way to create this type of redundancy is to have 2 separate cords around the tree and through the rings; if one is cut you still have an anchor. Obviously it’s just one more tool and each situation calls for a solution based on what’s available. 

M Appelquist wrote:

A basket hitch has the same level of redundancy as a wrap-3,pull-2 tied loop.

Which is... none. Cut a single strand of the webbing at any point and you die.

Can someone answer why a double fishermans is commonly used in place of an overhand with tails?

Mike-Mayhem wrote:

Can someone answer why a double fishermans is commonly used in place of an overhand with tails?

Pretty sure the answer is YouTube and similar 

Thanks for the explanation gents.

Nate A, I totally see it now. The double cord going thru the same ring/biner is what I usually see in the wild.

I would just like to use this post to say 2 things

The anchor isn't going to strangle the tree, plants grow around anything and everything.

don't use slings for rap stations, use a rope, slings lose pretty much all of their strength from uv degradation whereas a rope maintains most of it even if the mantle is destroyed by UV.

 Slings and rings suck.  if it's high traffic the tree will die not from strangulation but from erosion around the root system.  If it's not high traffic  it will get funky.  A proper bolted anchor is much smaller impact and less obtrusive. Sometimes there is no realistic option for a bolted anchor and the tree anchor is the best option.   In that case static rope is best but regular climbing rope is decent. 

that guy named seb wrote:

The anchor isn't going to strangle the tree, plants grow around anything and everything.

Well, yes they do, if part of the bark is obstructed (say from a fence, we often see trees growing/wrapping around fences for instance), I'm sure it can much just compensate with other unobstructed sections. However, if the obstruction wraps around the whole trunk, maybe not so much. I don't know if webbing/cords specifically matters enough to cause damage... e.g. a trunk growing is pretty strong, and the pressure point is somewhat large and flexible, so perhaps the trees grows slow enough/webbing degrades or is changed fast enough so that the pressure that builds up doesn't actually matters. To put that to the extreme, if you were to tight-wrap say some steel wire around a trunk, you would definitely cause some damage to the tree over a few years. Webbing is probably better. Dunno if it's bad enough to matter.

Maple syrup producers likely know this, and typically they pad whatever wires they use when they go around trees. I'm sure they wouldn't waste time with that if they didn't have empirical knowledge that wrapping stuff around trees causes some damage.

Anyways as NIck said, if lots of traffic soil erosion will end up being worst.