Camp 4 lottery: NPS Recreation.gov sham

I don’t know the whole story so someone from NPS or Recreation.gov should chime in.

I have been trying to get a Camp 4 campsite but its all a lottery system. I don’t have any issue with a lottery but there is a $10 lottery fee to compete for 11 possible sites (according to the site today).

When I previously entered the lottery, I must have overlooked that it said that only a handful of sites were available due to covid or something instead of the normal 36 sites as shown on the Camp 4 map online.

Anyways when I was camping in the Valley this weekend, I went past Camp 4 which appeared totally empty and instead a handful of “new”campsites appear to be located near the Swan Slab side of the Camp 4 parking lot.  What is going on here?

Are those the 11 campsites that hundreds of lottery people are competing to get? By my calculus, NPS and Recreation.gov are scoring a windfall with this lottery system and making WAY more money off the lottery fees than the camping fees.

For example, if 100 people enter the lottery on any given day, that’s $1000 made off people gambling for a site. The sites themselves only cost $6 per tent per person.  Given that, they might only make $66+$110=$176 on camping fees from the people that actually win, but $890 in fees from all the losers!

What a sham!

No wonder why so many climbers are bootlegging it in the Valley. I climbed with a guy who was already doing it for a couple of weeks.  I am sure he wasn’t the only one bootlegging it of course.

Hats off to the rogue campers and maybe I will join them soon until NPS fixes the system!

Agreed. Yosemite has become increasingly mismanaged. The permits, fees and restrictions are out of control. 

The only upside of all the entry restrictions is that the Valley looks like it did in the mid 1990’s with so few people. Wild! Never thought I would see it like that again…

Not totally sure about the lottery business, but from my understanding, they expanded camp 4 east of the parking lot (don’t know how many new sites are there) and are planning to “renovate” the older camp 4 sites before opening those up. I don’t know what exactly they plan to change with the old sites. 

carla rosa wrote:

Not totally sure about the lottery business, but from my understanding, they expanded camp 4 east of the parking lot (don’t know how many new sites are there) and are planning to “renovate” the older camp 4 sites before opening those up. I don’t know what exactly they plan to change with the old sites. 

Every few years they “renovate” Camp 4 but all they do is ultimately make it smaller.  Camp 4 used to be twice as big in the 1990”s. I used to be neutral about NPS but now I can’t stand them. 

There are also major fee increases proposed for next year:

https://www.nps.gov/yose/learn/news/yosemite-national-park-solicits-feedback-on-proposed-campground-fee-increases.htm

The proposed fee changes are listed below:

• Camp 4 Campground 
  • 2020 fee: $6.00 per person | 2021 proposed fee: $10.00 per person 
• Family Sites in Reservation Campgrounds (this includes Upper, Lower, North Pines, Wawona, Bridalveil Creek, Crane Flat, Hodgdon Meadow and Tuolumne Meadows Campgrounds) 
  • 2020 fee: $26.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $36.00 per site
• Family Site Campgrounds when First-Come, First-Served (this includes Wawona and Hodgdon Meadow during the Winter Season and White Wolf) 
  • 2020 fee: $18.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $26.00 per site 
• Primitive, First-Come, First-Served Campgrounds (this includes Tamarack Flat, Yosemite Creek, and Porcupine Flat) 
  • 2020 fee: $12.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $20.00 per site 
• Group Campsites (30-person occupancy) 
  • 2020 fee: $50.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $75.00 per site 
• Stock Campsites (these sites are located at Wawona, Bridalveil Creek, and Tuolumne Meadows Campgrounds) 
  • 2020 fee: $30.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $50.00 per site 
• Double Sites (12-person occupancy) 
  • 2020 fee: $36.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $60.00 per site 
• Backpacker Sites 
  • 2020 fee: $6.00 per site | 2021 proposed fee: $8.00 per site 

Yosemite National Park is accepting public comments on the proposed fee increases through July 10, 2021. Comments can be submitted via email. These proposed fee increases are slated to take effect October 2021.

Note:  Booz Allen Hamilton gets those rec.gov fee's.  Get angrier.  

https://www.outdoorproject.com/articles/no-recgov-doesnt-fund-public-lands

This lottery system, and these fee increases are ridiculous. I've already voiced my opinion to the NPS about the lottery system... will do so with the fee proposals too. And now the Lover's Leap campground is $28/night for a walk-in campsite that used to be free. Maybe our tax system needs to be reevaluated if the NPS/FS/BLM are running at such a deficit that they need to squeeze campers like this.

Brandon R wrote:

This lottery system, and these fee increases are ridiculous. I've already voiced my opinion to the NPS about the lottery system... will do so with the fee proposals too. And now the Lover's Leap campground is $28/night for a walk-in campsite that used to be free. Maybe our tax system needs to be reevaluated if the NPS/FS/BLM are running at such a deficit that they need to squeeze campers like this.

What do you propose? An increase in taxes or a change in spending habits? Good luck with either option.

Parachute Adams wrote:

What do you propose? An increase in taxes or a change in spending habits? Good luck with either option.

A little (or a lot) of both. Higher taxes on the extremely wealthy (like 1950's level), less spending on the military, etc. Ever see this scene? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g Now we can't even answer with "Yosemite" anymore. 

Brandon R wrote:

This lottery system, and these fee increases are ridiculous. I've already voiced my opinion to the NPS about the lottery system... will do so with the fee proposals too. And now the Lover's Leap campground is $28/night for a walk-in campsite that used to be free. Maybe our tax system needs to be reevaluated if the NPS/FS/BLM are running at such a deficit that they need to squeeze campers like this.

Again, note: 

The reservation or application fees you pay to plan your adventure on Recreation.gov, separate from a permit fee which you may or may not pay as well, are anywhere from $6 to $15. None of these fees end up with the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the BLM, or any other federal land agency. You are, instead, paying directly into the pocket of a corporation that designed a digitally attractive assistant to provide you with that highly valued, intuitive booking experience. 

https://www.outdoorproject.com/articles/no-recgov-doesnt-fund-public-lands

Xam wrote:

Again, note: 

The reservation or application fees you pay to plan your adventure on Recreation.gov, separate from a permit fee which you may or may not pay as well, are anywhere from $6 to $15. None of these fees end up with the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the BLM, or any other federal land agency. You are, instead, paying directly into the pocket of a corporation that designed a digitally attractive assistant to provide you with that highly valued, intuitive booking experience. 

https://www.outdoorproject.com/articles/no-recgov-doesnt-fund-public-lands

Privatization (Disneyfication) of these lands certainly needs go away.  

My money doesn’t go to them.

Because I don’t buy passes.

Just go.

Nature belongs to everyone.

(If you hit Yosemite early enough there are no rangers at the gatehouse).

The whole climber thing about I'm cheap is so last century. Grow up and make enough money to support your habit. Get over it. This is the new reality. The government is not here to support your habits. You're here to support theirs. Blame your parents. 

I really have a problem with this federal government gambling system. Surely there is a lawsuit or something to stop this type of consumerist based land access. I don’t think they should keep the $10 for a chance to win a s pot. Buying a chance to win something is gambling!

Yeah was trying to go the valley for a week for the first time this year...ended up going having to  somewhere else. The logistics seemed like a nightmare with the permits/bullshit of everything. Coming from the east coast at least and taking work off etc they make it so damn hard.

For more insight into YOS wilderness permits and management check out this podcast “The RunOut Podcast” ep 62 & 63 covers the issues.

Kirk Grant wrote:

For more insight into YOS wilderness permits and management check out this podcast “The RunOut Podcast” ep 62 & 63 covers the issues.

Not really "insight" more conjecture about what might happen in the future and retelling of stories second hand from their friends that were pissed that they got hosed by not actually trying to follow the regulations, especially since those of us that actually climb walls consistently in the valley haven't experienced more than the normal inconvenience of having to schedule a meetup time. 

Chris Topher wrote:

Yeah was trying to go the valley for a week for the first time this year...ended up going having to  somewhere else. The logistics seemed like a nightmare with the permits/bullshit of everything. Coming from the east coast at least and taking work off etc they make it so damn hard.

Yeah, I'd have to disagree. My partner for my recent trip up El Cap a couple weeks ago came from the East Coast and, though he's not really the best at planning ahead or even following directions,  he was able to work out a 2 week stay without issue utilizing the backpacking campgrounds before and after his bigwall permit dates for the three walls he got on and camping outside the park gates. 

Joshua Tree Runner wrote:

For example, if 100 people enter the lottery on any given day, that’s $1000 made off people gambling for a site. The sites themselves only cost $6 per tent per person.  Given that, they might only make $66+$110=$176 on camping fees from the people that actually win, but $890 in fees from all the losers!

I think there's a real opportunity to make this feel less like a cash grab.

For instance, if you don't win on a given weekend, you don't have to pay again until you win, or next season. So enter one lottery, get one lottery ticket. You win, great. You lose, you get to enter for another date. This is how preference points for hunting licenses work. The goal should be to get people who want to be in Camp 4 in there, not just milk such people for money.

Also, Camp 4 is the only campground in the park that does a lottery. Which is galling, considering that getting a site in upper pines is either a 7am lottery 6 months in advance (but with error messages that imply agency to change it on either the NPS's part or the user's part), or a full-time job checking every 5 minutes for weeks at a time until a cancellation appears. I had friends who spent 10 low-stress minutes applying for the lottery, then went on with their lives.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Not really "insight" more conjecture about what might happen in the future and retelling of stories second hand from their friends that were pissed that they got hosed by not actually trying to follow the regulations, especially since those of us that actually climb walls consistently in the valley haven't experienced more than the normal inconvenience of having to schedule a meetup time. 

Yeah, I'd have to disagree. My partner for my recent trip up El Cap a couple weeks ago came from the East Coast and, though he's not really the best at planning ahead or even following directions,  he was able to work out a 2 week stay without issue utilizing the backpacking campgrounds before and after his bigwall permit dates for the three walls he got on and camping outside the park gates. 

That right there sounds like a lot of BS and bouncing around...

snowcreek man wrote:

https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/blog/fedbiz_daily/2016/07/why-booz-allen-is-helping-microsoft-get-more.html

This was long ago planned.  Expect automated everything.  And expect to use you certified ID/covid vax passport for entry-everywhere.

This is a form of social credit scores based on your wokeness and lack of bias. the new normal is not normal at all. 

Lmao your link has absolutely nothing to do with the stuff you go on to say. "This is a form of social credit score based on wokeness". What exactly is the "this" you are talking about?