Lead Climbing is Often Safer than Top Rope

You're not seeing the difference between risk from screwing up and risk that can't be eliminated.

If you don't screw up (e.g. falling at the top of a crag, building a poor anchor, top roping something not suited to it or no directional) top roping is extremely low risk. 

If you don't screw up sport climbing is usually low risk for life threatening injury but you might break or sprain an ankle if you fall at the wrong time.

Even if you do everything right trad and aid climbing still retain a significant degree of risk. You may often be looking at 20 foot falls. The environment and protection is more variable. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Again, as mentioned up-thread, not all routes are suitable for top roping.That is the aspect the OP completely misses.

I said can be, so if anything that is exactly what I said up thread.

Ben Silver wrote:

Did you seriously create a second account just to get around the post limit?

I have explained this 100 times. Please help MP fix it here so I don't lose half my tick information.

Senor Arroz wrote:

Please post some videos of people who can't even set up a decent top rope doing a great job lead climbing.

Yall are putting words in my mouth. The main point is the advice to throw a top rope up isn't good. I am not necessarily recommending that person lead.

Glowering wrote:

You're not seeing the difference between risk from screwing up and risk that can't be eliminated.

If you don't screw up (e.g. falling at the top of a crag, building a poor anchor, top roping something not suited to it or no directional) top roping is extremely low risk. 

If you don't screw up sport climbing is usually low risk for life threatening injury but you might break or sprain an ankle if you fall at the wrong time.

Even if you do everything right trad and aid climbing still retain a significant degree of risk. You may often be looking at 20 foot falls. The environment and protection is more variable.

I am not saying that lead climbing is always more dangerous, I am just saying the danger of top roping should not be underestimated.

bryans wrote:

There is a hole in your life, and these posts aren't ever going to fill it. We are all struggling to engage and feel relevant during this pandemic and its aftermath and maybe this is how you seek stimulation. If your posts could only be useful in any way, that would be one thing. As it is, they pass by like farts in the wind - briefly annoying but ultimately forgettable. Just imagine, you are the first guy to ever ponder the fact that toprope has its own risks. Next, will you ask us to ponder the deep thought that seat belts don't protect against all car accidents? Do tell!

Yeah but people still comment in the threads soooo. Also feel free to over analyze me but generally I have a thought, post it on mountain project, then go climbing and come home to the forum erupting in some weird anger. The adverse reaction to my threads is as much a reflection of me as it is of you all. If you guys actually didn't care you wouldn't post or comment. But instead you come into a thread make some value judgement so everyone can give you fake internet points in the process undermining your own value judgement about me. But lets just extend your logic. You think I have some kind of emotional disorder. So rather than making any kind of effort to help me, you post some weird cryptic message. If you think I have an actual problem as an actual human being you should at least offer to have a conversation to me. You have my number but I am happy to send it to you again. 

Kyle Elliott wrote:

New climbers are likely going to be on low angle terrain where a lead fall on a ledgy 5.6 is much more dangerous than a gently overhanging 5.11

IMO new climbers should only be climbing with someone that can build anchors, tell the difference between shit ones and good ones, and use directionals if there's danger of a swing or excessive rope stretch. 

I see what you are saying, but a ledge fall may be potentially less lethal than a ground fall.

Short answer. No.
Long answer. No.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

 . . . Also feel free to over analyze me but generally I have a thought, post it on mountain project, then go climbing and come home to the forum erupting in some weird anger . . .

The thing is not every thought is worth sharing.  Furthermore, if you share a thought and people disagree with it don’t get so whiny.  It’s free speech.  If you don’t want people to disagree/ make fun of you then make more intelligent posts, or don’t post.  Either way the butthurt you’re feeling is your own fault  

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Maybe people feel differently than me but advice often given to new climbers is to top rope stuff. I really feel like this is can be often bad advice and dangerous advice. First, telling new climbers to setup a top rope is bad advice. It is often more technical than just lead climbing stuff (especially sport climbs). The number of jank anchors I have seen in Pawtuckaway state park and the devils lake anchor thread are significantly concerning. I am not talking about poorly equalized I am talking about quick draw daisy chain. Secondly, many climbs are bad top ropes. There are many slabs in index that if you set up a top rope and didn't place any redirects you would swing significantly off route if you fell. In Rumney I saw multiple people soft deck because they would climb a steep overhang then fall colliding with the very large talous as they swung. Third there is actually more redundancy leading. If you are placing gear or clipping draws there is actually more protection in the wall (generally climbs get rated better that are safer). There are often top ropes where you can't even see the anchor from below. 

Edit: To add. I get called a gumby/dumb/soft/weak often enough and I rarely top rope. To Franks point I haven't talked to my mom in a week!

In short I think it is often safer to lead climb than top rope. I guess if you wanna be bold, top rope. 

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Chad Miller wrote:

The thing is not every thought is worth sharing.  Furthermore, if you share a thought and people disagree with it don’t get so whiny.  It’s free speech.  If you don’t want people to disagree/ make fun of you then make more intelligent posts, or don’t post.  Either way the butthurt you’re feeling is your own fault  

Let me get this straight you come into a thread about lead climbing being safer than top roping you directly call me inexperienced. There is absolutely no way I can respond to that without being perceived as whinny but if there is please give me an example. Tone on the internet is reflected by the reader and not the author.  But please if your reasoning is that I lack experience what experience do I need to gain? How hard must I climb to change my opinion? How much do I need to climb? You can go on my profile and send me recommendations based on what I have climbed. 

When you trad climb do you tell someone their nut is placed wrong due to inexperience or do you articulate why a nut placed in a flared out crack won't hold?

Edit:

Kevin R wrote:

Trevor, you are wrong.

You can't reasonably claim that top roping is unsafe because dumb people set up dumb anchors.  Top roping isn't the problem there.  I can't imagine the people setting up sketchy TR anchors would be safe leading sport or trad.  I think a better point would be that top roping in not fool-proof.  If you build a shit anchor, it's not safe.  If you set up the anchor with a huge pendulum swing, it's not safe.  If you fall off the top of the cliff while setting up or breaking down your anchor, it's not safe.  Like anything, you need to exercise good judgement to mitigate the risks.  I still think beginners are better off top roping to start out, but need to make sure they are doing it safely.  Top roping still has fewer variables for new climbers to try and manage, so is still a safer choice.

Is this not exactly what I am saying? The point I am making is that telling someone they should just go top rope some random climbs is bad advice. Yet it is advice I see on mountain project and facebook. Giving specific advice about specific top ropes is better. There are many climbing areas where just saying throw a top rope on it is bad advice. At the exits with exception of one crag I think it would require more knowledge about climbing to setup a top rope than it would if you just knew how to lead something. 

Specifically on facebook I have seen people recommend index for TRing. Often index TR are not super straightforward index climb you have to climb a 5.8 to get to it. 

Another popular top rope is cultureshock which if you don't place draws as you lower you will hit the stump.

I can't tell. You might lack experience, proper education/training, reasoning skills, or a good sense of humor. But like you, I'm just sharing thoughts on the internet, so don't attack me for my opinion. 

Trevor, you are wrong.

You can't reasonably claim that top roping is unsafe because dumb people set up dumb anchors.  Top roping isn't the problem there.  I can't imagine the people setting up sketchy TR anchors would be safe leading sport or trad.  I think a better point would be that top roping in not fool-proof.  If you build a shit anchor, it's not safe.  If you set up the anchor with a huge pendulum swing, it's not safe.  If you fall off the top of the cliff while setting up or breaking down your anchor, it's not safe.  Like anything, you need to exercise good judgement to mitigate the risks.  I still think beginners are better off top roping to start out, but need to make sure they are doing it safely.  Top roping still has fewer variables for new climbers to try and manage, so is still a safer choice.

Trevor Taylor wrote:

Not sure if your agreeing with me. I can think of three deaths of people setting up top ropes. 

It sounds like you're comparing "setting up a toprope anchor" to "toprope climbing" which are two different things. You're also failing to break "lead climbing" down to "sport lead", "trad lead", and "aid lead"... you're thesis is utilizing insufficient evidence. 

R G wrote:

It sounds like you're comparing "setting up a toprope anchor" to "toprope climbing" which are two different things. You're also failing to break "lead climbing" down to "sport lead", "trad lead", and "aid lead"... you're thesis is utilizing insufficient evidence. 

In a trad situation it takes about the same amount of knowledge to top rope as it does lead. If you do not know how to trad climb then building a gear anchor might be pretty dangerous. If you know that two quick draws make a sport anchor you probably know how to lead climb on bolts. So setting up an anchor either way should require that you know how to lead climb. Getting back to my earlier point if you don't know how to lead climb does recommending people just go top rope good advice to give someone? I would say better advice is to either recommend they go with someone experienced that can teach them how to build an anchor or recommending they learn how to lead climb so they can better evaluate risk. 

To the rest of the posters in this thread. Apparently reading is hard for you all because I did not say that it is always safer, just that sometimes telling people to just go top rope stuff aimlessly is a poor and lazy recommendation. Since this thread blew up apparently you guys want more threads by me?

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

"...telling people to just go top rope stuff aimlessly is a poor and lazy recommendation". 

Well, I think we can all agree on that...

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Let me get this straight you come into a thread about lead climbing being safer than top roping you directly call me inexperienced. There is absolutely no way I can respond to that without being perceived as whinny . . . 

Correct.

Your comments are foolish and quite frankly, stupid. There is nothing wrong with that. The issue is that you’re a troll who won’t take advice from others so you never learn anything.

You’re willfully ignorant  As such your complaints about people being mean to you for posting inane topics is just the whinny lamentations of a fool.  

Chad Miller wrote:

Correct.

Your comments are foolish and quite frankly, stupid. There is nothing wrong with that. The issue is that you’re a troll who won’t take advice from others so you never learn anything.

You’re willfully ignorant  As such your complaints about people being mean to you for posting inane topics is just the whinny lamentations of a fool.  

How am I ignorant? No one has argued against me if anything people are agreeing with me. Do you think top roping is safer than leading climbing 100% of the time? Every single route is safer as a top rope than lead?

Edit: probably should have used the word can be instead of often

I am not saying that lead climbing is always more dangerous, I am just saying the danger of top roping should not be underestimated.

The title of the thread is "lead climbing is often safer than top rope", often makes it sound like it's usually more safe, which is just not the case. You could write lead climbing can be safer than top rope, or is sometimes safer. But as a whole it is obviously more dangerous and the accidents statistics support that to the extreme.

You are right top roping should not be underestimated. Anything over 30 feet high or so can get you killed. It's just as important to correctly set up a TR anchor on a 5.2 as it is to set a solid cam placement on a 5.12 with a ground fall. And you're also right that if there's already lead protection a single messed up lead placement may not get you killed, while a screwed up TR anchor could. But it usually takes more skill, you're under more stress, and your more apt to fall placing lead pro than setting up a TR anchor.

Ok so at times lead climbing  is safer if its traversing or overhanging but if its runout the of course top roping is safer

Chad Miller wrote:

Correct.

Your comments are foolish and quite frankly, stupid. There is nothing wrong with that. The issue is that you’re a troll who won’t take advice from others so you never learn anything.

You’re willfully ignorant  As such your complaints about people being mean to you for posting inane topics is just the whinny lamentations of a fool.  

There is an ignore user feature, ya know.

Tradiban wrote:

There is an ignore user feature, ya know.

Says the insincere troll.