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5.12
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Just wondering how many/ what percent of climbers climb 5.12? Sport? Trad? Honestly |
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A lot... |
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It used to be 5.11, so yeah, a lot |
Jay Goodwin wrote: Couldn't you say it used to be 9+? I'm guessing some 12s happened, even way before the grade? But yeah, a fair percent, these days, because so many people are coming into climbing very young. I wouldn't say 12 is the new 10, but it's pretty doable for hungry climbers. That great strength weight ratio and being pre-injury helps too, for the young climbers. Don't forget the abundance of gyms now, too. You don't need a parent around to be an 8 year old badass. At this point in time, gyms have been around long enough that we have a big influx of young adults who are ridiculously strong climbers. H. |
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When I go to the ORG, or Pine Creek I see tons of folks ON the 12s - but I’d reckon only about 20% are doing those climbs clean. I don’t know if clean is the main goal now days. At Taquits and Suicide the 5.12 climbs are mostly vacant- the ones you must lead. The climbs one can TR - they see lots of tries. I don’t think 12 is the new 10. |
Guy Keesee wrote: Hey, OP didn't specify lead or flail, eh? ;-) To me, 10 is where the vast majority can get without putting much effort into it. 11, you might have a good day and luck out, as a 10 climber. 12? You need to put some time in, at the very least, and get some skills going. Some people are also simply better at crimpy skimpy stuff right out of the gate, too. But you still need to be able to read sequences, have good placement, etc. The 12s I've stared at? Some are clearly burly, (those thuggish OWs), but a great many just look.....blank, to me, lol! Totally improbable. Like the Fins. Or overhung entirely, which looks ridiculously fun, like Maple Canyon. Or those inverted wideboyz things..... Sigh. Sucks being old. But? There's a point where different styles of climbs work well for some people. A climbing partner got an 11, following, at the Fins, that he described as done "by some miracle", lol! Truth is, it totally suited his lanky build and natural affinity for balancey crimpy stuff. Being able to walk up to and climb anything at the grade, across the board, is a whole other deal. And people who can do that have earned it. H. |
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The percentage of climbers climbing .12's is probably the same or lower than in the past, but the overall number of climbers is so far greater, that the amount of .12 climbers is way more as well. 5.13 is the new .12. I used to think .12 climbers were strong, until I started climbing .12's! |
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In the absence of data, there can be only guesses. Or guesstimates based on incomplete/selected/biased data, such as ticks on MP, or surveys. It is also not quite clear if you mean the lifetime achievement of the grade, vs the snapshot slice of the climbing community right now... (someone who used to climb 5.12, but has quit climbing 10 years ago counts? How about Someone who started climbing three months ago, and definitely has the ability to climb a 12, but hasn’t yet?) What’s your definition of a climber? Are we talking about outdoor climbers only, and outdoor 5.12, or are we talking anyone who owns shoes and harness, even if they hadn’t ever stepped outside? And indoor 5.12 counts? Indoor toprope counts? Or does it have to led? How do you define an outdoor climber? Someone who owns a rope and climbs outside? Someone who leads outside? How do you define an indoor climber? Someone who has a gym membership? Defining outdoor climber as someone who owns gear and leads routes outdoors, and looking at the snapshot of climbers right now, so basically people who have been actively climbing outside in the past 12months, I would guess that about 10-15% have sent at least a sport 12a. And about 1-2% have sent a gear 12a. (Based on various survey results I’ve seen, but can’t bother to find the link) |
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i should've been more specific, confidently climbing 5.12 outside leading sport / trad I've been climbing for a long time, but have only climbed several 5.12 s and it wasn't pretty |
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Indoor doesn’t count for jack. Flailing doesn’t count for jack. You get extra points for placing gear. |
Matthew Jaggers wrote: That's because you climb at the Red ;) |
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At my local Crag it’s gotta be less than 1/50 but when I go to the Red it’s more like 1/3 |
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You old climbers are just gate keeping with that "climb clean" nonsense. |
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By "climb," do you mean move from the bottom to the top without falling, dangling, or grabbing pro? That's the only thing that counts as a send. Anything less is working it. By that standard the percentage of climbers who climb 5.12 trad is fairly small. On any given weekend day, when the most climbers are out, you can walk the base of Tahquitz or Suicide rocks, all the way around, and it will be a rare day indeed if you see someone on a 5.12, let alone actually climbing it. Also, are you talking .12a, or .12c? There's a hell of a difference between the two. At .12c trad I'd say the number is 5% max. probably less. At the CA Needles your chances of seeing someone climb a 5.12 are a little better, since there are routes there that people come from around the world to do. At any given good weather day in Yosemite (valley and Meadows) how many climbers do you think are climbing 5.12 trad? "You old climbers are just gate keeping with that "climb clean" nonsense. " LOL |
Carolina wrote: Indeed...LOL. Time you stepped up, Carolina. |
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According to that database query that was posted 12a puts you in the 87th percentile for max ticks on mountain project. If you are really interested in competing with strangers 8a is better because you get points. Edit here is the link https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117787505/maxaverage-grade-of-ticks-for-crag-by-climber-example-the-gunks |
Old lady H wrote: I really like this perspective. People are definitely climbing more 12s across the board - but it tends to be in just one of the many disciplines/styles that are out there. The number of people who can be taken blindfolded to any style of crag in the world and get a 12 within a couple of goes is likely still near where it's been in the past. So I guess it depends whether OP is asking about competency at the grade or just barely breaking into it. I'm still a long way off of being fully rounded, but that's the eventual goal. Being able to get any style of 12 within a couple of tries on the sharp end is gonna be dope. |
Trevor Taylor wrote: Do you have a link to these results? |
Trevor Taylor wrote: A database from MP ticks? Hmm. And as he asks in the link, a tick is a lead: redpoint, flash, or onsight. Or swinging leads on multi-pitch with no falls or other shenanigan's. MP ticks allows for TR etc., but that skews the stats for knowing how many really send the route. |
Kristian Solem wrote: But didn’t they use your exact definition? They took the mp data and only included onsights and redpoints? Either way if you assume 12% of users lie in their ticks that puts you in the 1%. I don’t know how perfect the proj data set is but I imagine It lacks lowest and highest performing climbers. Also if you are trying to impress people just tell them you are a better climber?! |
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This really depends on how you define a climber. I think here (northeast) 90% of ‘climbers’ never climb outside. These people have never even heard of mountainproject. Out of those 10% that climb outside, maybe 10% can get up a 5.12. Out of those, maybe 10% can lead 5.12 trad. So maybe 0.1% of people that consider themselves a ‘climber’ can regularly lead 5.12 trad? I imagine that in certain areas out west this may be much higher. It’s hard to estimate, because the people you compare yourself to change as you get more serious about climbing. Similarly, there are a lot of people that run, but I would imagine that 99.9% could not run a 3hr marathon even though that is a relatively attainable goal. |
