The “bouldering is dumb” thing

caesar.salad wrote:

I'm sick of people calling climbing "selfish". Why is having a hobby selfish?

If climbing is your hobby, it's probably not very selfish.

The "selfish" element rears its ugly head when it's an obsession. Which it has been for me. 

I lived a double life. I supported myself with jobs in music production.

Everything else was about climbing; training, planning, organizing, driving, being there, doing it. I gave of all my energy to both endeavors at the same time. There were no other material commitments, no other burdens of responsibility, no spare time for anything else. This went on for over 30 years.

The result? No kids. Family dying off. It's funny how climbing partnerships, those bonds we never thought we'd lose, fade away to the occasional text or phone call. I grieve for three close one's who checked out by their own choice, climbers all, one so close that I'll shed a tear every time he crosses my mind.

Billcoe wrote:

There are literally people who climb in the climbing gym 3 times a week and are very skilled who have never (GASP/SHOCK) climbed outside. They just don't care to do so and you know what? That works for them. 

Works for me too, this is the future of climbing! Gyms are safer, cleaner, better routes, better music and more babes.

and yeah, blowing off family and a social life to climb is fairly selfish. I've known more than a handful of older climbers that through selfishness have ended up fairly lonely, most of them struggling to pay for the last visit to the doctor or for car repairs.

bouldering is cool, I prefer areas with circuits so I can get pumped without the gear. Almost all of my projecting is on a rope though, i have fairly good knees and back and would like to keep them that way.

M M wrote:

Works for me too, this is the future of climbing! Gyms are safer, cleaner, better routes, better music and more babes.

and yeah, blowing off family and a social life to climb is fairly selfish. I've known more than a handful of older climbers that through selfishness have ended up fairly lonely, most of them struggling to pay for the last visit to the doctor or for car repairs.

bouldering is cool, I prefer areas with circuits so I can get pumped without the gear. Almost all of my projecting is on a rope though, i have fairly good knees and back and would like to keep them that way.

Gym climbing is to masturbation...

As outdoor climbing is to the real deal!

Pierre de St Croix wrote:

Gym climbing is to masturbation...

As outdoor climbing is to the real deal!

And an orgasm can be had alone or with three hotties. Its still an orgasm!

M M wrote:

And an orgasm can be had alone or with three hotties. Its still an orgasm!

Quality, not quantity!

You're 57! You aren’t having foursomes bro!

some orgasms are way better once in the better setting! 

stay on the strip looking “to score” while we shred long routes in the wild!

Kristian Solem wrote:

If climbing is your hobby, it's probably not very selfish.

The "selfish" element rears its ugly head when it's an obsession. Which it has been for me. 

I lived a double life. I supported myself with jobs in music production.

Everything else was about climbing; training, planning, organizing, driving, being there, doing it. I gave of all my energy to both endeavors at the same time. There were no other material commitments, no other burdens of responsibility, no spare time for anything else. This went on for over 30 years.

The result? No kids. Family dying off. It's funny how climbing partnerships, those bonds we never thought we'd lose, fade away to the occasional text or phone call. I grieve for three close one's who checked out by their own choice, climbers all, one so close that I'll shed a tear every time he crosses my mind.

  

Doing what you love isn't selfish. Not having kids isn't selfish. I will concede a certain amount of privilege is needed to do this. But I contend that privilege and selfishness are not one in the same.

I can't speak for Mr. Solem but he didn't seem to be saying climbing is selfish or not having kids is selfish. He said (paraphrased) that he was selfish about his obsessions and that his selfishness led to him not having kids, as an example.

Seems to me selfishness is inherently a personal thing. The activity (climbing) is only along for the ride. The person is selfish (and I have certainly been that selfish climber too, in my turns), not climbing.

Kristian Solem wrote:

If climbing is your hobby, it's probably not very selfish.

The "selfish" element rears its ugly head when it's an obsession. Which it has been for me. 

I lived a double life. I supported myself with jobs in music production.

Everything else was about climbing; training, planning, organizing, driving, being there, doing it. I gave of all my energy to both endeavors at the same time. There were no other material commitments, no other burdens of responsibility, no spare time for anything else. This went on for over 30 years.

The result? No kids. Family dying off. It's funny how climbing partnerships, those bonds we never thought we'd lose, fade away to the occasional text or phone call. I grieve for three close one's who checked out by their own choice, climbers all, one so close that I'll shed a tear every time he crosses my mind.

  

Wow, here I was trying to entertain myself skimming over another troll thread & I get hit with this thoughtful, vulnerable, & real comment. Thank you Kristian!

My wife & I met climbing, we carried on much the way you described above for years. Our plan was "make lots of money, climb everything, no kids, no bills".

Luckily I snapped my bicep, & she broke her foot, that got us thinking & before you know it we made some babies.

I'm sure I won't ever climb ALL the lines I'd like to, but I feel fortunate to be a father.

RE: "is climbing selfish"? it sure can be. The moment it becomes a priority for me I become an asshole. If your life is designed to allow unlimited time & resource towards climbing, no.

This was great stuff in an unexpected place. <3

Nice, I am glad my "selfish" comment started a thoughtful discussion.  My take...

Yup, I stand by my generalization that climbing is selfish.  Is it worthy enough to take the "hobby" up? Absolutely, but still selfish.  I do not think selfish is a bad word as some of the posts imply. One must take care of self first.  But, what about the outcomes?  Is it selfish to tell the wife and kids to not disturb me for the afternoon while jamming some tunes?  Absolutely, but I will be in a better mindset, which will make me a better person to be around later.  Same with climbing.  My mindset is absolutely the best after some great climbing.  Still, when the wife, kids, and parents get the call that you are dead because you decided to climb, that is the ultimate selfish.

What does climbing give the world?  Sweet pictures!!! What does it provide the mom who frets each time the climber goes out? Some moms get it, but many don't.  Climbing does not solve world problems, or even provide a living wage for most.  It is an escape.  That is selfish.   Sadly, I knew an awesome bloke who completely disagreed with me.  Disagreed completely.  His climbing was just a simple hobby, until the sheriff broke the news to the wife and kids that dad is jello.  That simple hobby that provides so much fun to the participant, has given a ton of grief to the non-participants over the years.

So, I think climbing is selfish because it really only is good for me.  And potential devastation to everyone else.

But yeah, most climbing is dumb as hell but bouldering just happens to top the list. It should be called honey pot summiting since boulders have been used as latrines for thousands of years.

Haha I remember being on one side of a boulder in the Satellites, and some dude that was really having a hard time on Captain Hook trudged over to the opposite side of the same boulder and took a nice big piss. I threw a pinecone up and over and hit him. But it's alright man, I can't even do A7.

Billcoe wrote:

. . . John Gill too, likely the most bad ass Boulder on the planet ever........hmmm. opposing thoughts on this. 

Allow me to oppose. I never got beyond V10. I'm lucky I climbed sixty years ago!   

John Gill wrote:

Allow me to oppose. I never got beyond V10. I'm lucky I climbed sixty years ago!   

Yeah but v10 in the 80s was radical. V10 still is rad. Thanks for making the sport what it is today, man. Bouldering is my passion. Don't know what  I'd be doing without it.

Wow, here I was trying to entertain myself skimming over another troll thread & I get hit with this thoughtful, vulnerable, & real comment. Thank you Kristian!

My wife & I met climbing, we carried on much the way you described above for years. Our plan was "make lots of money, climb everything, no kids, no bills".

Luckily I snapped my bicep, & she broke her foot, that got us thinking & before you know it we made some babies.

I'm sure I won't ever climb ALL the lines I'd like to, but I feel fortunate to be a father.

RE: "is climbing selfish"? it sure can be. The moment it becomes a priority for me I become an asshole. If your life is designed to allow unlimited time & resource towards climbing, no.

This was great stuff in an unexpected place. <3

What if I split my unlimited time and resource between scuba diving and climbing?

Gregory Clay wrote:

What if I split my unlimited time and resource between scuba diving and climbing?

Lucky ducky!

I have no answers or judgement to pass for anyone else. Would suggest you look objectively at your lifestyle and decide for yourself.

Do you “give anything back” to either community? Is there a way you can?

IMO, being willing to Boulder, even if it’s not your favorite climbing “discipline” is key to becoming a better and stronger climber faster. When I first started climbing a little over a year ago, I ragged on bouldering partially because I thought it was difficult and not that exciting. Once I let go of that and started bouldering once or twice a week I started jumping grades quick. I went from climbing 5.6 to 5.11 in a year only climbing 2-3 days a week and with no other training. Bouldering more gave me better footwork and the opportunity to work moves and techniques I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to do if I was just top roping or doing easy leads. It’s definitely made me a more well rounded climber and I’ll sing it’s praises to anyone who will listen.

Demetri V wrote: Better than sitting on the couch watching NASCAR and drinking Mountain Dew

Those are called recovery days 

Jens 1 wrote:

You’ve all seen the T-shirts. Some background behind the “Bouldering is Dumb” philosophy. I was at a climbing gym the other day that has one of the tallest indoor lead walls in the USA. No one was rope climbing. I went upstairs to the modest bouldering area to find a belayer. I asked the only eight climbers (boulderers) present if they were interested.  All said no. Climber #1 was filming himself boulder with a tripod, #2 said he was concentrating on his “4 by 4’s”  #3 was failing miserably on the moon board, #4 was doing some kind of improvised weighted pull-up contraption in between falling off V2’s,  #5 was religiously writing down his moves in his training journal on beginner level problems. #6 said he was “saving his skin” for what I’d assume was his bouldering “project” (it was my fourth day on fyi) #7 was doing visualization of his V3. #8 appeared to just stare at the spray wall all afternoon. All were climbing at mediocre levels. In retrospect, it was quite laughable. Every small town in the US has a bouldering gym these days making them a dime a dozen. If you are lucky enough to have a World Cup lead wall in your city, use it. 

Jens 1 wrote:

You’ve all seen the T-shirts. Some background behind the “Bouldering is Dumb” philosophy. I was at a climbing gym the other day that has one of the tallest indoor lead walls in the USA. No one was rope climbing. I went upstairs to the modest bouldering area to find a belayer. I asked the only eight climbers (boulderers) present if they were interested.  All said no. Climber #1 was filming himself boulder with a tripod, #2 said he was concentrating on his “4 by 4’s”  #3 was failing miserably on the moon board, #4 was doing some kind of improvised weighted pull-up contraption in between falling off V2’s,  #5 was religiously writing down his moves in his training journal on beginner level problems. #6 said he was “saving his skin” for what I’d assume was his bouldering “project” (it was my fourth day on fyi) #7 was doing visualization of his V3. #8 appeared to just stare at the spray wall all afternoon. All were climbing at mediocre levels. In retrospect, it was quite laughable. Every small town in the US has a bouldering gym these days making them a dime a dozen. If you are lucky enough to have a World Cup lead wall in your city, use it. 

Frank Stein wrote:

I understand the value of bouldering. It is fun, it is effective training, I used to boulder a lot, but holy shit..,I never understood the whole “you don’t have to worry about falls/swings/gear” thing. Every fall in bouldering is a grounder, and every single injury I’ve had in three decades of climbing has been from bouldering. This includes sprained ankles and knees galore, badly bruised heels, a broken foot, and even a sprained jaw with broken teeth when I fell head first out of a fist crack. These days I can try much harder on a rope than some 15’ pebble where I’ll come crashing into the tallus off of some weird mantle horror show. 

Sure--bouldering isn't inherently safe, and indeed all my climbing injuries have been from bouldering as well. But if you want to focus on movement and not worry about safety, it's often possible to find a lowball with a flat landing. Toproping has the same "you don't really have to worry about falls/swings/gear" aspect, but it doesn't have the "just trying hard" aspect as well--especially since you need a patient belayer if you're really going to flail on something. Obviously your mileage may vary based on your area: not everywhere has a lot of lowballs with flat landings.

I guess this comes somewhat from a "bouldering for training" perspective rather than a "bouldering for bouldering" perspective. I have almost no interest in the boulders with talus landings because I simply never get psyched enough on a boulder for its own sake to work on something like that. Since I'm bouldering as training for rope climbing, being able to fall is almost the entire point: if I can't fall on a boulder safely then it's not effective training and I don't do it--I never have to worry about falls/swings/gear. If you're psyched on boulders for their own sake, you might be more interested in boulders over talus landings, in which case the "you don't have to worry about falls/swings/gear" certainly no longer applies.