Best way to anchor off a tree with rope in guide mode

Hi, 

What's the best way to anchor off the tree with the climbing rope to belay in guide mode? I know it's pretty easy to do this when belaying off the harness, and obviously a cordelette around the tree would work as well, but is there a good knot for this when using the rope? 

I ran a search for this but didn't see anything, any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!

I personally like using the Buntline Hitch on a bight. I think I first heard about it from one of rgold's comments.

A Buntline Hitch is basically a hitch tied by making a Clove Hitch around the other side of the rope.

From your tie-in knot, allocate as much slack as you want for your tether. Then, past that, form a bight of rope, and pass the bight around the tree, and tie a Buntline Hitch using the bight around the both strands on either side of the bight. Then snug up the hitch against the tree. Make sure everything is dressed and tight. The loop coming out of the hitch is your master point, where you can attach your guide mode device.

What makes this a really nice option is that the hitch can be tied, and then slid up to make the loop snug on the tree. This allows you to make the master point nice and high for comfortable belaying.

I use the C-Hitch for this

https://youtu.be/Wh5eVcHlwdU

When clipping the carabiner make sure you clip the correct strands or it will be a failure on the anchor. Once you tie it  move down the climbers side on the rope a little and tie an overhand on a bight for your master point. 

Attached is diagram from the Ontario Rock Climbing Assoc. manual

showing an anchor using only the rope.

The Bowline with a bight establishes the anchor rigging, your tie in to the anchor and a masterpoint loop all with just one operation.

Both listed above are great options when you're belaying near the tree. If you want a little more distance (like you've topped out a cliff and there's a tree 15ft back) - 

Simply pull up some slack, walk around the tree, come back to where you want to belay from, tie an overhand or figure 8 on a bight in BOTH ropes. This is your master point which also secures you to the cliff. 

This is the same method you can easily use to extend your master-point. in the first photo, this is exactly what is done. After tying the master point, you can see that I've taken the backside rope and cloved a piece nearby to keep the anchor from sliding down to the left. 

Jeremy Bauman wrote:

Both listed above are great options when you're belaying near the tree. If you want a little more distance (like you've topped out a cliff and there's a tree 15ft back) - 

Simply pull up some slack, walk around the tree, come back to where you want to belay from, tie an overhand or figure 8 on a bight in BOTH ropes. This is your master point which also secures you to the cliff. 

This is the same method you can easily use to extend your master-point. in the first photo, this is exactly what is done. After tying the master point, you can see that I've taken the backside rope and cloved a piece nearby to keep the anchor from sliding down to the left. 

I do this for sure  but I am conscious at the fact that in this configuration you are ina a non redundant system. Yes I when  climbing you are always in a nonredundant system with a single rope. But I n this configuration if I have e the rope length to do it I will tie a bowline on a bight around  the tree, and then move down the desired length , overhand on bight, clip in or clove on the back side of the anchor. 

Jeremy Bauman wrote:

Both listed above are great options when you're belaying near the tree. If you want a little more distance (like you've topped out a cliff and there's a tree 15ft back) - 

Simply pull up some slack, walk around the tree, come back to where you want to belay from, tie an overhand or figure 8 on a bight in BOTH ropes. This is your master point which also secures you to the cliff. 

This is the same method you can easily use to extend your master-point. in the first photo, this is exactly what is done. After tying the master point, you can see that I've taken the backside rope and cloved a piece nearby to keep the anchor from sliding down to the left. 

Thanks! 

In this scenario, it looks like your tie in point is coming directly out of the knot which is pretty slick—if using a figure 8 knot, is there any risk of it rolling since you're putting force on it from both ends? (Granted just body weight). 

I tie to the tree with a bowline with enough slack to walk back to the edge of the cliff, then make a loop with and alpine butterfly to belay off of. 

BMK wrote:

Thanks! 

In this scenario, it looks like your tie in point is coming directly out of the knot which is pretty slick—if using a figure 8 knot, is there any risk of it rolling since you're putting force on it from both ends? (Granted just body weight). 

No - because you're belaying off the loop, this keeps it from ever being able to roll even if you somehow got it to (which you won't). I would say however, that just for material considerations, I always use an overhand in this situation which resists rolling even more. If you're ever concerned, just keep a locker clipped to the loop. 

Thanks Jeremy, that's good to know—I had been considering some version of this but got hung up on the theoretical risk of rolling. I assume that an overhand is totally fine (basically an EDK, right?) but gets harder to untie. 

Thanks all for the many suggestions, this has been very helpful.

I would much rather have sap on a sling than on my rope, so I basically never wrap my rope around a tree.

Patrik wrote:

I would much rather have sap on a sling than on my rope, so I basically never wrap my rope around a tree.

I've heard that concern before but must say, I've never gotten leaks from doing this... I'd imagine inspecting for that would be important. I don't think enough pressure would be there, in most cases, to cause damage to the point of sap. Not to mention that there are lots of other trees than pine. 

J D wrote:

I use the C-Hitch for this

https://youtu.be/Wh5eVcHlwdU

When clipping the carabiner make sure you clip the correct strands or it will be a failure on the anchor. Once you tie it  move down the climbers side on the rope a little and tie an overhand on a bight for your master point. 

I agree that in many cases the C-Hitch could be appropriate but would be hesitant to recommend it as the "best way".

mbk wrote:

I agree that in many cases the C-Hitch could be appropriate but would be hesitant to recommend it as the "best way".

The problem with all these variations on anchor knots is that many are easy to do wrong, as the guy in the vid shows.

Everybody knows the fig 8 in a bite, use it make your anchors and forget the rest of the minutia. 

Marty C wrote:

Attached is diagram from the Ontario Rock Climbing Assoc. manual 

showing an anchor using only the rope.

The Bowline with a bight establishes the anchor rigging, your tie in to the anchor and a masterpoint loop all with just one operation.

Interesting...that's a Yosemite-finish bowline tied with a bight (changed "on" to "with" per Mark Gommers' comment), with the belay device clipped to the Yosemite-finish strand.  Although perhaps not a big deal, people should know that a Yosemite finish bowline has to be properly dressed or it collapses into something else. Over many years of me and my partners tying in with Yosemite-finish bowlines, I've never seen this collapse come even close to happening, but you can tie the knot very loosely and then manipulate it to create the fault, so it is at least something to be aware of.  Here's the video that exposed the issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI.

The buntline hitch, also called a stunsail tack bend, tied on a bight rather than the single strand in the link animatedknots.com/buntline-…, is an old standard that is just as good as it always was. It's just a slip knot formed from a pair of half-hitches, but the half-hitches are arranged to form a clove hitch and the bitter end strand emerges from inside the loop, not outside, giving the loop a chance to pin the end and so increase security.

The poorly-named Connecticut hitch is, in my opinion, a bad choice, in spite of some recommendations from highly qualified guides.  Orient the toggling carabiner wrong and the whole thing comes free of the tree.  Yikes!  Be damn sure to double-check this if you insist on using it.

In practice, trees are often not well-placed for belaying, being too far back from the edge for good communication and rope feel. So you'll often want a method that gets you closer to the edge. Such a method should be adjustable from the edge position so that the belayer doesn't have to guesstimate how much slack to leave. For such things, just tie a butterfly knot or overhand loop in the belayer's rope a convenient distance from the tie-in knot and clip a locking carabiner to it. Walk around the tree and back toward the edge, get situated, and then clove to the locker. Use the tied loop as the powerpoint for the belay device. If getting to the edge is exposed, you can throw a Munter hitch on the locker while still at the tree and belay-lower yourself into position and later belay yourself back up. In this case, just Mule off the Munter when you get in position rather than converting to a clove hitch.

This description doesn't utilize a sling around the tree, so works if you've pretty much run out of gear. But if you do have a sling, use it and follow the procedure above rather than passing the rope around the tree and then dragging it across the bark. In addition to possible damage to the tree, especially if the belay spot is frequently used, there is the possibility of getting sap on your rope, which is very annoying.

None of this works well with a plaquette in guide mode if the rope is around the base of the tree and there is no slope to elevate the tree above the belay position.  In that case, I think a seated harness-level belay, anchored as depicted, is best.

Many thanks Richard, this is all very helpful. Appreciate you weighing in.

For the sake of accuracy about knots:

Interesting...that's a Yosemite-finish bowline tied on a bight, with the belay device clipped to the Yosemite-finish strand.

There is a distinction to be made about the terms 'with' a bight and 'on' a bight (in relation to 'Bowlines').

#1074 Bowline with a bight is a different geometry compared to the Triple Bowline (the name 'Triple Bowline' was given by Robert Chisnall and confirmed by Geoffrey Budworth).

There is also a #1080 Bowline on a bight (which is different and distinct from the previous mentioned knots).

The principal knot in the anchor configuration explained by rgold is in fact a 'Triple Bowline' - and it's loading configuration is depicted as a soft shackle.

Kelly Byrne tested this interesting (soft shackle) loading profile and published the results in his technical paper which he presented at a ITRS technical rescue symposium. The MBS yield Mr Byrne obtained in a soft shackle loading profile was reported in his technical paper (download is available from PACI website on knots at this link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php ). Due to a doubling of rope segments - the MBS yield was significantly higher than yield point for single rope strand. I think he tested both the #1074 Bowline with a bight and the Triple Bowline (need to check this).

What is often not reported by commentators (in relation to the Triple Bowline) is the fact that it requires a significant length of rope to form the knot (meaning it is less efficient). Obviously, the use of the climbing rope to build an anchor assumes there is sufficient remaining rope to actually build the anchor! If the pitch length was such that insufficient rope length is remaining - this would create difficulties. Rope stretching pitch lengths are not rare - they can in fact occur - and so climbers also need to be able to build a reliable anchor without using their climbing rope.

...

With regard to the video link (in relation to alleged failure mode with the 'Yosemite Bowline'): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI

The person who produced the video doesn't actually doesn't understand the failure mode.

Look very closely...at 0:34 in the video, the failure mode is initiated. It is caused by prematurely yanking on the tail before the knot core has been properly set. While tying the 'Yosemite Bowline', if you yank on tail before setting the knot core, the tail will be displaced. This results in an unstable configuration. The resultant structure is 'unstable' because when subjected to cyclic loading and/or slack shaking, it will work itself loose. Note: A gradual (steadily increasing) application of load on a test bed (or a steady state tensile pull) may not reveal this instability - and so give the tester a false positive. As soon as you subject the structure to slack shaking and/or cyclic loading, the instability manifests...

I would further comment that the 'Yosemite Bowline' depicted in the video is not the same structure as a Triple Bowline. Therefore, the failure mode (yanking on the tail) is harder to initiate.

BMK wrote:

Thanks! 

In this scenario, it looks like your tie in point is coming directly out of the knot which is pretty slick—if using a figure 8 knot, is there any risk of it rolling since you're putting force on it from both ends? (Granted just body weight). 

In practice, the risk of rolling a well dressed figure 8 knot is negligible at normal climbing loads. UK climbers have been belaying off their tie in points for decades and I've never heard of any of them dying due to their knot rolling open.

Mark Gommers wrote:

For the sake of accuracy about knots:

There is a distinction to be made about the terms 'with' a bight and 'on' a bight (in relation to 'Bowlines').

#1074 Bowline with a bight is a different geometry compared to the Triple Bowline (the name 'Triple Bowline' was given by Robert Chisnall and confirmed by Geoffrey Budworth).

Can you explain the difference or maybe give us pictures comparing the two? Everything I've found so far seems to show those two knots as being the same.

The orange cord is a bowline with a bight (as in "I took a bight of rope and tied a bowline with it"),  (Actually, no.  See the edit below,) The blue cord is a bowline on a bight.

Edit: Corrected by Mark Gommers again!  The knot on the left is a triple bowline.  I didn't know about Ashley 1074, a bowline with a bight.

per rgold:

The orange cord is a bowline with a bight (as in "I took a bight of rope and tied a bowline with it"), the blue cord is a bowline on a bight.

Sorry - but this is factually incorrect. The #1074 Bowline with a bight has a different geometric structure compared to the Triple Bowline.

Warning: Technical content ahead!

For knot geeks who like the technical detail: #1074 Bowline with a bight is 'BTL' (bi-axially through loadable) and can exist mid-line,

In contrast, the Triple Bowline is NOT BTL (it is principally an end of line knot - although it has been tied mid-line to hoist sailors with up to 60 degree included angle).

Another example of a BTL eye knot is the #1053 Butterfly (Note: The Butterfly is also capable of a tri-axial loading profile).

Please refer to image (below). 

EDIT NOTE: I've extracted the Bowline with a bight at illustration #1074 from Ashley Book of Knots (primary source for technical details about knots).