Knot and Hitch Security With Rope Movement Videos

or why a clove hitch is a midline knot

Videos I made of Girth, MunterMule, and Clove Htiches and a simple Bowline around large diameter tube, wiggled the rope a bit to see which ones fall apart.

The Girth and Clove Hitches do not fair so well. (Some videos removed for clarity and embarrassment).

I don't have any biners with any stock that big.  

Very misleading videos.  1.  The girth hitch only fails because he loads one strand.  Vast majority of climbing uses would load both strands.  2. He doesn't tighten/dress the clove, then loads it in a peculiar, gentle rocking manner.  He might even be gently pushing the rope back into the knot (see how the hand repositions each time)?  Even then it only fails because it's tied close to the end of the rope.  

I am also not sure that bowline is tied correctly, or at least it's a variation on a standard bowline.  The "bunny" goes back through the loop, not around the standing end.   

Just informational stuff. A beginner should know the limit of their knots. Try these yourself.

The clove hitch was dressed and tightened, it slips on that large smooth surface with gentle back a forth motion as might be generated at an anchor of a rope around a pole or smooth tree. I have seen people set up a top rope with the only anchor a clove hitch around a smooth tree with no back up knot. The clove hitch is fine in a closed system, but if you are tying in at the end, just like a bowline, you should use a backup knot. You wouldn't tie into your harness with just a clove hitch.

The girth hitch is sometimes being used on belay anchors at the master point. If an arm of the web or cordelete is cut only one side would be loaded. Multiple strands around a smaller diameter bar stock definitely work better that the situation in the video. But understand girth hitches can slip in some circumstances and wouldn't be my go to for tying off larger smooth items at ropes end. I sure doesn't work in the back of my truck.

The bowline is tied bass ackwards, but still withstood a  lot more rope manipulations.  It is rare that a bowline fails, but not rare enough, so use a backup knot or follow thru double bowline at the bitter end.

So far the takeaway seems to be: 

a style of carabiner you'd never see in reality *might fail*

also, a method no sane human would use... *might fail*.

got it, thanks. Good thing I already knew that the clove is always backed up by a quick overhand on a bight to the other bolt, otherwise apparently I'd be dead. Also, guys, I'm hereby selling ALL of my biners with 40mm rope bearing diameter. I should have known better than to purchase those 2lb carabiners.

1. You are gone die.

2. Meaningless tests for the hitches because they are used in "closed systems" that wouldn't fail as you show.

3. Probably time for someone to show you about rock climbing.

Dave Olsen wrote:

... I have seen people set up a top rope with the only anchor a clove hitch around a smooth tree with no back up knot....

lolz... sure you have...

Tough crowd.

Clive hitch

“It does have two giant faults: it slips and, paradoxically, can also bind. It should be deeply distrusted when used by itself…..It is not a knot to be used alone.”
www.animatedknots.com

Hello Dave,

I would like to thank you for taking the time and making the effort to conduct these tests and then post them on the internet.
There is a lot to learn about knots and the art of knotting... the rabbit hole goes much deeper than many people imagine, and the learning curve can be somewhat daunting.

With regard to your 'Bowline' video - I am unclear if you were consciously aware of the tying error you made (at the time of producing the video)?
We sometimes see this error when your reference frame is backwards.
When tying a knot into your harness, your reference frame is opposite to a situation where you turn and face the anchor point (in your case, a railing).

You actually tied what is sometimes referred to as a 'Eskimo Bowline' (aka 'Kalmyk').

Knotting geeks now refer to this type of geometry as an 'anti Bowline' (because the most of the tying maneuvers are performed in the 'anti' direction).

I would exercise abundant caution before posting any knot tying videos on the internet and sharing to the world at large - you really need to do your homework first - because once you release your work into the public internet space, your errors will lead some readers to think you lack competence.

I understand what you were trying to do - and that is to show that a 'Simple Bowline' (#1010) is not stable and secure when subjected to cyclic loading events and/or slack shaking. Having said that, it is already clear and obvious that the #1010 Simple Bowline was never intended for life critical applications. So testing it proves nothing (because it is an already an established fact that it isn't stable and secure). These days, we tend to use the #1010 Simple Bowline as a 'control' (when testing anything, it is essential to use a 'control'). When people use the word 'Bowline' as a catch-all noun, it actually immediately reveals that their scope of knowledge is limited....that's because there are many different types of 'Bowlines' - and some are classed as inherently secure.

If you have a technical mind and actually want to expand your scope of knowledge and understanding, I recommend that you go to this website and download and read the technical paper on 'Analysis of Bowlines'. http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table). Its not a paper for everyone, its sort of like downloading and reading someones thesis. But, as stated, it depends on whether you are motivated to expand your scope of knowledge!

There’s literally no reason why anyone should clove hitch around a tree directly.

For anyone who actually doesn’t know better, a clove hitch around a normal size carabiner will slip for a few inches as it tightens, then stay bound up until the rope breaks.

Shit like this is why we have to wait behind people faffing around at their 8mm cordelette anchor trying to connect with both a clove hitch and their PAS.

Dave - A for effort and intentions,  but C- for applicability and conclusions (in so far as climbing related).   Good start on pursuing investigations and testing.  

If you’re interested in this path, especially for climbing, I Recommend you invest in some basic test apparatus (like a 200lb sand filled test weight with harness for one example) and other equipment and use a documented test methodology that mirrors or uses as a baseline, the UIAA and similar test standards.  

Generally you’ll convince yourself in your test results that in climbing there is very little to be concerned about except for 4 things that generally are not sufficiently or satisfactorily controllable by you to the extent you’d prefer....

1. Hitting ledges or features on any fall no matter how short (broken bones typically result)

2.  Bad belayers (avoid as much as possible) 

3.  Tensioned Ropes cutting on edges

4.  Accidentally missing something that you know you shouldn’t miss - Human error despite knowing better

Knowing best practices and proper procedures is key, but in general Sweating details about knots, gear strength, age of soft goods, yadda yadda is so far down the list  of risks (below second hand smoke, cell phone radiation, what’s in your tap water, or the drive to the crag) that it just barely warrants much thought 

Boy, am I glad we had this talk.  

I thought it was interesting to be able to show why a clove hitch is a midline knot. I will remove the other vids, they were for comparison, (I wouldn't want to promote a version of a bowline the was unsafe or promoted the use of racist language). 

All hitches are midline knots that require a closed system.