Down quilts for alpinists

I'm curious to hear real-world experiences of people taking down quilts into the high and cold mountains.  As in, multiple consecutive bivies in single digit temps.  Alaska Range, Andes, off-season in Canada, etc.  

I've previously wrote off down quilts as the domain of ultralight backpacking/peakbagging nerds.  All of the reviews I've read online seem to be from that crowd.  But Enlightened Equipment makes a 10F quilt that is about half the weight of my nice 0F down bag.   I have a vision of pairing that with puffy pants and midlayers I'd already be carrying and enjoying a setup I could use in some pretty treacherously cold conditions, like early spring mountaineering trips in lower elevations peaks Alaska.  But there's a saying about things that seem too good to be true....

Strictly speaking, if the quilt/pad system is good, it works. 

But I don't like quilts when it's that cold. Cold weather often means lots of tent time and you can't sit up and do tent chores (cook, play cards, whatever) while staying warm like in a bag. And messing with clips and straps when your fingers are cold/numb is meh. I find myself needing way more motivation to do anything that I can't do from a horizontal position. 

If these are things you think you can overcome (I'm a princess), could be worth a shot. 

In temps like that the drafts kill you. For that reason I have found a mummy closure to be key. The feathered friends spoonbill is more or less a double quilt but with individual closures. It works really well. 

Keep in mind some quilts are comfort rated and some are limit rated. Pretty important for comparing to a bag.

I find quilts to have much more of a skill gap - in the cold you do NOT want to strap it to the pad. Must be strapped to you. And something like Nunataks edge control system thing really helps with drafts as well. I dont think I would take an EE quilt mountaineering - probably would only consider Nunatak, Katabatic, or Gryphon Gear (or maybe Loco Libre).

I have done quilts down to about 10F but when it gets that cold I would recommend wearing a parka and down pants underneath (probably down booties too or your boots). This way if a draft gets in its not nearly as bad. I used a 30F comfort rated down quilt for the above and it was not too bad (large parka though). The real key is having an extra lofty hood on the parka (or even an addon down hood). Inside a waterproof bivy would of course also reduce draft potential a lot as well.

You are definitely gonna want to practice with it all though beforehand - make sure you can easily get in, strap it tight, and most importantly seal it well around the neck. And for the cold you want a sewn footbox no questions. In my opinion it definitely blows away an elephants foot bag and lots of insane people use those. I definitely would not just consider it an ultralight backpacking only thing.

Below 0F I prefer a center zip bag sized just enough to still be able to wear a parka / down pants inside without compressing the down. If needed its nice to be able to vent the center zip and keep the jacket on.

I have used one in Swedish in the lowlands. For anything alpine i would get a real sleeping bag. Things can happen and you can sit in a sleeping bag och some ledge, that does not work well with a quilt...

Some history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Obermeyer

Among Klaus's many innovations, some of the most notable are:

• The quilted down parka, stitched together from his own down comforter.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Some history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Obermeyer

Among Klaus's many innovations, some of the most notable are:

• The quilted down parka, stitched together from his own down comforter.

Cough unreferenced Wikipedia entry cough! Obermeyer started working in 1947. Well before that time George Finch, Australian chemist and mountaineer invented a down filled jacket for the 1922 Everest expedition.  An upgrade on tweed worn by the rest of the team.

If you'd prefer an American, Eddy Bauer is credited as the first to bring such jackets to market in 1938. 

duncan... wrote:

Cough unreferenced Wikipedia entry cough! 

Reading failure ... it does not say Obermeyer was the first, now does it?

Oh and it is Eddie Bauer.

the Feathered Friends Spoonbill is a 2person mountaineering quilt; I have it and like it very much 

You can contact Nunatak and get a quilt of insulation, but on the bottom there is a sleeve of material for your pads, eliminates drafts.

I sometimes use combo systems using quilts. FF Flicker 20f inside of a (discontinued) MEC +10c syntethetic mummy overbag

You can also fasten a 50f synthetic quilt over and covering a 20f or 10f down quilt, for a much more insulating combination that protects your inner bag from frost and condensation

Christopher Sinclair wrote:

Keep in mind some quilts are comfort rated and some are limit rated. Pretty important for comparing to a bag.

Comfort and limit ratings refer specifically to a standardized way of measuring sleeping bag warmth that’s adopted basically across everyone that makes bags. It’s called EN13537 if you want to read about how it’s done. One aspect of it is that it explicitly excludes non mummy bags, anything that could be called a quilt, and anything rated below 0F because the warmth of your bag starts to depend on a lot of other variables in those circumstances.

As per all of that, quilt “ratings” are just ballparks based on how much down is in them. It’s not rigorous, but you can use it to compare how warm they are relative to each other. 

If you lay very still when you sleep and don't mind straping it to the pad it works well. Make sure the edges of quilt are rolled under to prevent drafts. Else, it makes for cold nights if you toss and turn. You will lose your collected heat as it  leaks out the side.  A light SOL bivy will help if used under the TQ. Of course if you plan to just sleep in your outlayers also, a TQ is fine. Personally, I do not want to funk up my layers while I sleep. That will happen easy enough after 3-4days!

In the long run, sleeping bag is best bet, especially if windy.  Been thinking about making my own V section of material that I could add to my Hammock Gear TQs...sudo sleepingbag(no insulation on bottom), draft free!

Max Neale took one up the Cassin Ridge and wrote about it:

http://maxneale.blogspot.com/2014/08/expedition-frumplestiltskin-cassin.html

http://maxneale.blogspot.com/2016/08/best-ultralight-four-season-sleeping-bag-feathered-friends-spoonbill-review.html

Liam Hoefer wrote:

Comfort and limit ratings refer specifically to a standardized way of measuring sleeping bag warmth that’s adopted basically across everyone that makes bags. It’s called EN13537 if you want to read about how it’s done. One aspect of it is that it explicitly excludes non mummy bags, anything that could be called a quilt, and anything rated below 0F because the warmth of your bag starts to depend on a lot of other variables in those circumstances.

As per all of that, quilt “ratings” are just ballparks based on how much down is in them. It’s not rigorous, but you can use it to compare how warm they are relative to each other. 

I know but what I am saying is that some quilt manufacturers rate their stuff where they are trying to estimate the EN comfort rating while other quilt manufacturers rate their quilts in an attempt to replicate the EN limit rating. So also when comparing quilts you need to be sure which they going for.

Cluster One wrote:

If you lay very still when you sleep and don't mind straping it to the pad it works well. Make sure the edges of quilt are rolled under to prevent drafts. Else, it makes for cold nights if you toss and turn. You will lose your collected heat as it  leaks out the side.  A light SOL bivy will help if used under the TQ. Of course if you plan to just sleep in your outlayers also, a TQ is fine. Personally, I do not want to funk up my layers while I sleep. That will happen easy enough after 3-4days!

In the long run, sleeping bag is best bet, especially if windy.  Been thinking about making my own V section of material that I could add to my Hammock Gear TQs...sudo sleepingbag(no insulation on bottom), draft free!

This is incorrect - you definitely do NOT want to strap your quilt to your pad. This is why people think quilts are so drafty. The quilt straps should go around your body so that the quilt seals around you.

Nothing wrong with strapping to the pad in warmer weather but if you want to maximize quilt warmth it is much, much more effective strapped to your body. Strapping it to the pad is kind of the equivalent of putting a sleeping pad inside of a sleeping pad with you.

I have used an EE 20 degree extra wide quilt in Alaska and Patagonia. I have used it for myself (not sharing). The extra width allowed me to wrap it around myself.

One night in Piedra Negra and two nights on Fitz Roy in February using a goretex bivy sack and NeoAir XTherm. This was great. Temps were not very cold.

One night in Piedra Negra, one night on Guillamet, one night on Mermoz w/ emergency bivy sack and NeoAir XTherm. Last night on Mermoz was cold but survival was never a question. I also didn't have much for layers other than R1+NanoAir+Long underwear+shells. I suspect that the down was starting to lose warmth.

Two separate one night bivies on Mt Huntington in early May. SOL Emergency bivy sack and NeoAir XTherm (this is my preferred bivy sack now for this use). I had a Fitz Roy down parka, no puff pants. Both nights were comfortable. Temps were relatively warm and the route is on the west ridge, so we would have afternoon/evening warmth, and then wake up in the night the next day to climb in the dark and cold.

I picked up an EE 0 degree quilt to use on the North Face of Mount Hunter, but never got the chance to use it. However, I am not sure if it would have been warm enough. I do think at colder temps the quilt becomes less useful, and a full sleeping bag would be worth the weight.

I too have a EE blanket and use it a lot down to or even a little below its rated temperature.  Mine is 10 or more years old and I am still very satisfied with it.   I am a warm sleeper and have not zipped up my sleeping bags for decades before I got the blanket except below the bag's rated temperature.  I never use the straps, in fact never bring them with me but I think they are likely useful for controlling the draft.  The foot of the blanket is 'sealed' by zipping a small zipper and pulling an elastic cord.  Of course this leaks a little air and come undone some though out the night.  So wearing booties or socks is useful in cold weather.  

Drafts are a problem with blankets and I strongly suggest, as Michael implied above, ordering a wider model and possible a little longer than you think you need.  In fact I will probably buy another just to get a wider one.

Christopher Sinclair wrote:

This is incorrect - you definitely do NOT want to strap your quilt to your pad. This is why people think quilts are so drafty. The quilt straps should go around your body so that the quilt seals around you.

Nothing wrong with strapping to the pad in warmer weather but if you want to maximize quilt warmth it is much, much more effective strapped to your body. Strapping it to the pad is kind of the equivalent of putting a sleeping pad inside of a sleeping pad with you.

Disagree; the pad straps hold the edges of the quilt to the top face of the pad, so you can turn inside of it without lifting the edges up. 

Consider a quilt to supplement a bag rather than replacing it. The bag can then be smaller and lighter and the comfort range will be extended both ways when used together. Quilt only when warm, bag only when a little cooler but having the quilt handy to throw on top if cooler yet.; Wrap in the quilt inside the bag when even cooler. Add parka inside when colder yet. Layering works equally well for sleeping as for outerwear.

David Pneuman wrote:

Consider a quilt to supplement a bag rather than replacing it. The bag can then be smaller and lighter and the comfort range will be extended both ways when used together. Quilt only when warm, bag only when a little cooler but having the quilt handy to throw on top if cooler yet.; Wrap in the quilt inside the bag when even cooler. Add parka inside when colder yet. Layering works equally well for sleeping as for outerwear.

Down bag, synthetic quilt.

Ben Podborski wrote:

Disagree; the pad straps hold the edges of the quilt to the top face of the pad, so you can turn inside of it without lifting the edges up. 

This is an old topic now but just wanted to reply anyways

The better quilts actually sort of do BOTH - you want the quilt strapped around you (with the edges of the quilt tightly sealed around your body). The best quilts even have a separate tension s ystem that goes around the entire edge of the quilt to really help seal this and make it more comfortable.

Then in addition they will have another way to also strap to the pad. So basically your quilt is attached to your pad (like some bags have loops for) like you say and you get out or move the whole thing around or turn inside. But then also they have ways to seal it around you. If you seal it with the edges under an air pad you are kinda guaranteed to get drafts - using a thin CCF is sort of another story. 

One of my go to things is to actually layer two pads (CCF on top of air pad) with the air pad being wider and the CCF fairly narrow and short. I then attach the quilt to the air pad using the pad strapping method and then use the second set of straps / cord to tuck the quilt edges and seal it around the thin CCF. This creates a sort of pseudo hoodless bag.

Given the topic is mountaineering, any one single solution always has its weakness given the broad range of conditions that may be experienced. The way to mitigate that weakness is to have multiple solutions that can be deployed as necessary.

Ben summed it up perfectly. Down Bag. Synthetic Quilt. Size accordingly to destination.

I prefer a Primaloft quilt to Climashield in that it stops drafts better due to being a little denser / drapier.

I also prefer 650 fill power down bags over 800+ fill due to less voids in  the down. Put a light behind an 800 fil bag and behind a 650 fill one and you will see what I mean. Sometimes light isn't right ...