NRG -- Please leash your dog!

I'm sure this topic has been discussed ad nauseam, but I took my one year old pup to the crag for the first time this weekend at the New after reading up on crag dog etiquette, and I was surprised at how many unleashed dogs we encountered (I'd estimate that ~80% of our dog encounters were with unleashed dogs)! Prior to our trip, I thought everyone who didn't want dogs at the crag must just not like dogs in general, but now I totally get it. I probably packed more stuff for my dog than I did for myself lmao and was prepared to sit with her all weekend if she didn't do well (ie: barking, whining, generally restless). Lots of the anxiety (for us both) was caused by unleashed dogs. She was on a leash at all times (because it's the law and also because the area is unfamiliar to her and I didn't want her to run away or invade someone else's space), and she was constantly approached by unleashed dogs. 

There were two encounters that really stood out: one dog who wandered over to Second Buttress with no leash and no human after we had passed him on the trail previously. No one came looking for him and while he seemed pretty friendly and generally benign, he would not leave my dog alone. The dynamics where one dog is on leash and one dog is off leash are pretty tough to navigate as there is a power differential. I couldn't climb until my friend went over to Zero Buttress and found someone to come get the dog. The second situation that stood out was another off leash dog who came running over to my dog and got in her face. I immediately grabbed my dog (in hindsight, this probably escalated the situation as my dog felt even more trapped since I was holding her tightly, but I didn't want either dog to get hurt) and asked for someone to leash the other dog amidst lots of barking from both dogs. The owner told me that *her* dog wouldn't bite and that she didn't have a leash. Thankfully, someone else in her party grabbed the dog and they headed to a different area. We definitely caused a scene at the crag and it all could have been avoided if both dogs were leashed. 

I relayed this story to a few people back at the AAC campground, and one person said that he recently had an unleashed dog bite him while belaying and another dog steal his lunch out of his pack. Someone else said that they previously let their dog off leash too, but they had an incident where the dog ran up ahead, rounded a corner, and spooked a leashed dog who ended up biting their dog, and they were at fault because their dog should have been on a leash.

TL;DR: Even if your dog is friendly and has great recall, it's best for everyone if all dogs stay leashed.

Cute picture of two very good (leashed) pups at Rico Suave Buttress

Edit to add that not all unleashed dogs created a problem for us and that I realize that a leashed dog can also create problems at the crag. The onus is definitely on the owner to assess whether their pup is able to handle being a calm, quiet crag dog that doesn't invade the space of other dogs (or humans) while outside. 

I'm going to stir the pot. No dogs are perfect, and bringing dogs to the crag is a lot like going to the bar and seeing people you don't want to be around. Some are loud, some growl, some wine, some just DGAF, but they're still there. There are plenty of people at the bar you don't mind, but always a few you stay away from. 

Most of us with dogs do care about our dogs getting in other people's business and do a good bit to prevent it. That being said, it's never perfect and there will always be issues. If you have anxiety about your dog getting along while outside then there's a bigger problem. It's not if, but when, and are you prepared to deal with it quickly with as little headache as possible. No one has a perfect dog, and we don't know how our dogs will react all the time. We bring our dogs outside so they can enjoy the outdoors along with us. Not because we want to tie them up and restrict everything they do, and not because we want them to get into issues. If that was the case I'd just leave mine at home where she can lay on the couch.

Sorry for not making this a safe space. 

Some people do need to do a better job though, for real. 

Better solution: don't bring any dogs to the crag.

Everyone thinks their dog (leashed or unleashed) is a good crag dog. The reality is that 95% of them aren't.

Here's a much more eloquent writer on the subject: https://www.climbing.com/people/peaches-preaches-why-pets-dont-belong-at-the-crag-ever/

And with NRG's National Park designation, it's even more important that people keep their dogs out of bad situations. Leashes are required. https://www.nps.gov/neri/planyourvisit/pets.htm

Sam Stephens wrote:

I'm going to stir the pot. No dogs are perfect, and bringing dogs to the crag is a lot like going to the bar and seeing people you don't want to be around. Some are loud, some growl, some wine, some just DGAF, but they're still there. There are plenty of people at the bar you don't mind, but always a few you stay away from. 

Most of us with dogs do care about our dogs getting in other people's business and do a good bit to prevent it. That being said, it's never perfect and there will always be issues. If you have anxiety about your dog getting along while outside then there's a bigger problem. It's not if, but when, and are you prepared to deal with it quickly with as little headache as possible. No one has a perfect dog, and we don't know how our dogs will react all the time. We bring our dogs outside so they can enjoy the outdoors along with us. Not because we want to tie them up and restrict everything they do, and not because we want them to get into issues. If that was the case I'd just leave mine at home where she can lay on the couch.

Sorry for not making this a safe space. 

Some people do need to do a better job though, for real. 

100%

I will never understand the 'don't bring your dog to the crag' crowd. If they aren't dog owners, then sure. If you own a dog though . . . what a miserable life a dog with a climbing 'parent' would have if it never came to the crag. Home all weekend 2-3 weekends a month instead of getting to go hiking and hang out in the woods.

Alexander Blum wrote:

100%

I will never understand the 'don't bring your dog to the crag' crowd. If they aren't dog owners, then sure. If you own a dog though . . . what a miserable life a dog with a climbing 'parent' would have if it never came to the crag. Home all weekend 2-3 weekends a month instead of getting to go hiking and hang out in the woods.

Except you're not taking the dog hiking and hanging out in the woods. Most climbers are taking them to an overcrowded zoo.

I have a dog. A fairly well-behaved one. He's not coming to the crag because I can't ensure that he won't mess with other dogs or approach other climbers, just as most can't. It's all well and good until the pups distract belayers.

I'm sure your dog is a perfect angel and doesn't do that, but for those thinking about getting a dog AND wanting to spend 2-3 weekends per month climbing, maybe reconsider whether a dog works with your lifestyle and/or make sure that you have friends or family who would love having a dog 2-3 weekends per month.

Ben Silver wrote:

Except you're not taking the dog hiking and hanging out in the woods. Most climbers are taking them to an overcrowded zoo.

I have a dog. A fairly well-behaved one. He's not coming to the crag because I can't ensure that he won't mess with other dogs or approach other climbers, just as most can't. It's all well and good until the pups distract belayers.

I'm sure your dog is a perfect angel and doesn't do that, but for those thinking about getting a dog AND wanting to spend 2-3 weekends per month climbing, maybe reconsider whether a dog works with your lifestyle and/or make sure that you have friends or family who would love having a dog 2-3 weekends per month.

You must climb at the Red. Please stay there. 

I 100% agree with not taking your dog to the crag. I used to take all 3 of mine to the crag and it slowly dwindled to 1 and after seeing countless dogs eat people’s food, knock over kids, get bitten by copperheads, pee on people packs/shoes, I finally learned to lead by example. A number of people in Fayetteville still take their dogs out off leash and don’t care. I for one exercise my dog and hike with her separate from climbing.

If I had to keep my dog at home every weekend while I went climbing I’d either adjust my schedule or figure something out. It’s not fair to anyone on any side.

I have friends that come, hike their dog in the morning or afternoon and then climb the other part of the day. There are ways around it if you actually care.

As a small side note, Fayetteville has pretty strict laws regarding dog bites in town limits. 

One posted stated above, "Nobody has a perfect dog". That is actually not true. My dog is never unleashed. He never barks. He never digs. He never approaches other dogs, and he never poops at the crag. He never whines, and he has never caused a single problem for anyone, anywhere, ever. I don't have a dog. 

Sam Stephens wrote:

 If that was the case I'd just leave mine at home where she can lay on the couch.

Yes

Double Dutch wrote:

Bring dog to crag and then complain about other dogs at the crag. Solution: Don't bring your dog to the crag.

Unleashed dogs cause problems for climbers who don't have dogs too.

More seriously, I think it's worthwhile for all of us to understand dog owners as well. You do need to do something with your dog when you go climbing.

I'm personally fine with dogs on leash (as long as they don't bark out for dear life as soon as the master ropes up). I know many dog owners don't feel like leashing your dog at the crag all day is super nice for the dog. That's very true, but then you made the life choice of having a dog, as well as going climbing, and for whatever reasons you elected not to leave him with friends/family/dog shelter for the day. Those are all your choices, and at some point one has to assume consequences for one's choices.

This isn't very dissimilar to having kids & climbing. Either you bring your kid to the crag and probably climb less & babysit more. Or your leave him to friends/family/babysitter for the day. Or you plug him to the tablet & movies for the day at the crag while you climb. Which probably isn't super nice parenting... but again, at some point, life choices have to be dealt with. Or I guess the last option would be to do like some dog owners above seem to advocate - bring him to the crag, don't manage him much ("he's so well-behaved usually!"), and somewhat expect your kid to be a shared crag responsability. Of course no parents that I know of would do that. Though for some reason some do with their dogs.... hmm.....

Dogs act horribly and defensively on leashes. I have no problem with my unleashed dog meeting another chill unleashed dog at the crag; they sniff butts a few times and then go their merry way. When she meets a dog that is leashed, it rarely goes well.

It's an unpopular opinion, but I think that if you've got a dog that has to be on a leash to "behave" properly at the crag, leave them at home. That way we at least know that every unleashed dog at the crag is actually trained well.

Pnelson wrote:

Dogs act horribly and defensively on leashes. I have no problem with my unleashed dog meeting another chill unleashed dog at the crag; they sniff butts a few times and then go their merry way. When she meets a dog that is leashed, it rarely goes well.

It's an unpopular opinion, but I think that if you've got a dog that has to be on a leash to "behave" properly at the crag, leave them at home. That way we at least know that every unleashed dog at the crag is actually trained well.

I don't think it's appropriate for an owner to allow their dog approach another dog without the owner's consent. Having all dogs on a leash makes this much easier to manage. Some people are also afraid of dogs, and keeping my dog on a leash also helps others to feel better about being in a shared outdoor space. I don't keep my dog on a leash because she needs it to "behave" -- I keep my dog on a leash at the crag to keep her safe. She is curious and I can't guarantee that she won't follow her nose away from me in a totally new environment for her (in fact, that's a very unreasonable expectation for a young dog).

"....That way we at least know that every unleashed dog at the crag is actually trained well"

LOL.

I have seen good crag dogs both on and off lease - usually they just sit somewhere out of the way, don't bother any other dogs or people, and actually listen to their owner if/when their owner tells them to stop doing something, or to come.

But a majority of the dogs I encounter at the crag are not good crag dogs. From the minor offense of being off-leashed and walking up to me when I didn't really want to be approached by some random dog, to walking by/on my bag/stuff/rope or between my legs when I'm belaying (medium offenses), to the really bad ones that bark all the time, steal my food, bit me, start loud fights with other dogs....

My friend brought his dog once - it was a terrible crag dog - and he never bought it again. He still loves dogs. Anyway, imho you should use a leash if it's the law where you are climbing, and have the sense to unleash, leash, bring, not bring, or even never bring your dog depending on what crag you are going to, and how your dog behaves. It's true that some people do not even feel comfortable having a random 'friendly' dog that is off-leash (or on-leash) walk right up to them to say hello, I feel like a lot of dog owners don't appreciate that fact though..

Just leave your dog at home!!!

Cails F wrote:

The onus is definitely on the owner to assess whether their pup is able to handle being a calm, quiet crag dog that doesn't invade the space of other dogs (or humans) while outside. 

so we have no hope. 

Finally somebody made a thread about this!

Question, how many of you people have met MY dog? 

Russ Keane wrote:

Question, how many of you people have met MY dog? 

Probably some smelly, barky, shit-rat I have walked past at some point. 

Just to really pee in the pot: The problem is too many f—-king climbers. I used to take my Lab to T-wall in the early ‘90s, unleashed, and she was actually quite popular. More people knew her name than mine. I wouldn’t do that today. I still take my dog climbing—unleashed—but where I climb there are rarely any other climbers. On those rare occasions that I do run into some they are usually quite happy with my very friendly and well behaved dog. I’ve never run into anyone who has a problem with the dog, probably because they’re not the kind of people who have to climb with a crowd and clip bolts. If I ran into a climber(s) in that situation that copped a ‘dogs don’t belong at the crag‘ attitude I would tell them he probably has more business there than they do.

Jim Corbett wrote:

I would tell them he probably has more business there than they do.

This is the post that ended my life