Why do people hate on black diamond cams?

Francois Dumas wrote:

I do hate BD;

Low attention to detail,  (their gear have a rough edge, no finish, no details (detail cost money)) 

Selling the same gear for the last 5 years with zero improvement

Almost No r&d 

I'm calling BS on this. In the last fiveish years, they've released the ultralight C4, added trigger keepers to their big cams, released the Z4, and shaved weight from the standard C4. They have thorough R&D and they document it on their QC Lab website. Also, over the last 10 years, I've had to send in every one of my Metolius TCUs and Mastercams for wire repair or to replace those rubber stoppers. I've never had to do anything to my C4s other than wash and lube. 

I won't try to defend their skiing or ice equipment because I don't care and I have no experience with it, but the C4 is the gold standard in .5 - #4. 

I'm guessing that if people out East don't rack BD cams as much as people in the West, it's because they don't have a climbing partner who works at BD, so they aren't living large on the friends and family discount. 

Creed Archibald wrote:

I won't try to defend their skiing or ice equipment because I don't care 

It's not about defending the winter equipment (which is at best mediocre but whatever), it's about the company. 

The recent beacon issue is the equivalent of having a well documented failure mechanism on a rope or cam and not recalling it for a year until they get enough bad press and a class action lawsuit, just buying time to fine tune the cheapest possible bandaid solution (a hard case). 

There is no reason to expect BD's current corporate overlords to behave differently with regard to your discipline of choice. They suck. They don't care about your safety. It's nothing but profits to them. 

Creed Archibald wrote: I'm guessing that if people out East don't rack BD cams as much as people in the West, it's because they don't have a climbing partner who works at BD, so they aren't living large on the friends and family discount. 

Was my main reason for getting them was I had a friend with a pro deal when I lived in Colorado & because it’s what I learned to place at the time. But I have also bought new ultralights recently as well as some z4’s, love them all. 

The only reason to buy BD is that you can get their gear for 50% off very easily.

Lately they seem to be focused on throwing their logo on other companies gear and selling them as is, which is great cause you can now score ATK bindings and blizzard skis for half price.

As far as selling themselves as innovative or top of the line they very much are not, but I’ll keep getting solidly ok gear at a steep discount.

the days of Alex Lowe dawn patroling in the wasatch ended 25 years ago. Hitting up short swing before work along with everyone else in SLC isn’t the same. 

C4 is a solid cam. But it's cheap, like all their climbing hardware. Compare the C4 to WC friends or DMM dragons, its a good cam, just not as good as the others. Every time I look at BD hardware somebody else makes something better for nearly the same cost.

They use cheap designs a lot, look at the hoodwire compared to the others. The steel insert over the nose is cheap, and works, it's not as smooth and more prone to snagging but only a tiny bit so. Clever design really, but why was it like $0.50 less than the others? DMM, WC, CAMP, and Petzl all had designs that outperform in several ways for just a tiny bit more. 

Plus they have a pride issue, they can't admit they made a mistake or some one else did it better. Look at the WC friends extendable sling, BD said it couldn't be done but WC did it. Really easily on fact, they just used slightly thicker steel cable in the loop, problem solved. There are plenty of valid reasons not to, but instead of listing those they said it can't be done.

I've been replacing my rigid stem friends with new stuff.  Bought half BD and half WC.  I use the extendable slings on the WC all the time.

Tradiban wrote:

Millennials hate anything that's not made by a bunch of pot smoking hippies.

BD came into existence because of a pair of lawsuits that were putting Chouinard out of business. Gear failures, liabilities, and documented instances of whom designing gear behind the scenes? Pot smoking hippies. It’s easy to hate on BD for being corporate now, but in the early 90’s they were the punk rock alternative.

In the past access to a wide variety of brands, especially from overseas, was limited. Even today, we do not see many of the options available to european climbers.  I would also agree with the folks above who point out that rock type and access to friends with deals makes a difference in what's on one's rack.  

jdejace wrote:

It's not about defending the winter equipment (which is at best mediocre but whatever), it's about the company. 

The recent beacon issue is the equivalent of having a well documented failure mechanism on a rope or cam and not recalling it for a year until they get enough bad press and a class action lawsuit, just buying time to fine tune the cheapest possible bandaid solution (a hard case). 

There is no reason to expect BD's current corporate overlords to behave differently with regard to your discipline of choice. They suck. They don't care about your safety. It's nothing but profits to them. 

You might do some research into product recalls in general. Because what you wrote applies to most every company.  Companies do not respond immediately, especially when there has not been an injury or death. And even when there has been an injury or death it still may take some time. Look at the time for the Ikea dressers falling over.

One interesting part of the beacon issue is that BD inherited the problem. That is design was in place before BD bought Pieps. That does absolve them of responsibility but just an observation. That said, the design was a poor design in that it relies on a plastic tab and friction. The remedy as you note, a new external plastic case to keep the switch in the correct place, while understandable, it is really a band-aid so to keep from having a mandatory recall (current recall is voluntary). A mandatory recall would probably mean a replacement shell which would be very costly.

BD was the only company that would give me the time to have a real conversation about my product/invention ideas. I licensed one idea with them and they seem to understand the markets needs and limitations pretty well. I got a deaf ear from many companies and was even told to call back once my patent was complete from metolius. I was disappointed how they handled the communication and professionalism.

I always thought bd stuff was super solid and practical.  I've bought outerwear, climbing gear, and packs from them that are always well designed and made.  It's cool to hate on the big guys and support your locally grown gmo free gear companies, but bd has good stuff and continues to put out good stuff.  And that's all at a competitive price point with frequent discounts.  C4 is the gold standard for a reason...

Black diamond was the only real choice for a very long time.  Finally the patent on double axle cam expired a few years ago and suddenly all the other gear manufacturers are competing on quality of build and features rather than function.  

I see the same desire for something different in high top trad shoes.  Every year there is a thread hoping some new shoe is going to be better that the tc pro.  Every year the show is released and most are disappointed.  Some year someone will release a shoe as good or better as the tc pro for it's nitch and we will be hating on the tc pro for a while. 

Allen Sanderson wrote:

You might do some research into product recalls in general. Because what you wrote applies to most every company.  Companies do not respond immediately, especially when there has not been an injury or death. And even when there has been an injury or death it still may take some time. Look at the time for the Ikea dressers falling over.

It's true I am not intimately familiar with the product recall process. But there has been a death, and this is not a dresser. 

Mumblings about these beacons turning off have been around for years. It just took a while for it to happen to a vocal pro athlete who is lucky to be alive after his Pieps took a shit while he got buried. 

It's small numbers and it's a safety product. It has one purpose. In my mind it's not directly comparable to the dressers where it took tens of millions sold for a few tragic accidents to occur. I expect prompter action once a problem has been identified with an avalanche beacon. 

Petzl recalled tens of thousands of Grigri 2s within months of release that may never have failed in routine use because some military types tried to use one to winch a Hummer out of a ditch and broke the handle. I dunno. Maybe I am being unfair to BD but I can't help but think another company would have handled this differently. 

jdejace wrote:

It's true I am not intimately familiar with the product recall process. But there has been a death, and this is not a dresser. 

Mumblings about these beacons turning off have been around for years. It just took a while for it to happen to a vocal pro athlete who is lucky to be alive after his Pieps took a shit while he got buried. 

It's small numbers and it's a safety product. It has one purpose. In my mind it's not directly comparable to the dressers where it took tens of millions sold for a few tragic accidents to occur. I expect prompter action once a problem has been identified with an avalanche beacon.

Petzl recalled tens of thousands of Grigri 2s within months of release that may never have failed in routine use because some military types tried to use one to winch a Hummer out of a ditch and broke the handle. I dunno. Maybe I am being unfair to BD but I can't help but think another company would have handled this differently. 

While I see where you are coming from there are some differences. You mention the Grigri, Petzl released a new product (design), which within months of its release an issue was discovered in the field, when the issue was brought to their attention they could duplicate the failure in the lab. Once duplicated, the recall was issued. 

Contrast that to the beacon being in the field for several years and according to what I have read BD/Pieps worked to understand the problem were not able to fully duplicate it. Though there were issues with switches that were compromised. As such, there was a conflict between the real world and testing. So therein lies the problem when was the problem identified?? 

None of the above is to defend BD/Pieps I used a Pieps for years but have another brand for about 15 years now. I would not also directly compare the Grigri issue to say BD failed.  Though your point is that they are both safety devices is well taken. 

Most of all  product recalls is a process that does not happen as instantaneously like folks would hope. Especially when it may affect them directly. I have dealt with engineering QA issue but not since the mid 1980s. And at that time I got to make the call not to launch a satellite into orbit until it was understood why another did not deploy as expected. There is lots of pressure from all sides when such issues come up.

BD sold their soul

Franck Vee wrote:

Maybe I'm disconnected. My personal experience is that BD is just a company. E.g. they design, build & sell climbing stuff and the perception is pretty neutral overall.

But then I guess that since I have totems, as soon as gear talk starts I'll start talking about my Totems, so possibly I'm crowding out discussions about other cams out there....

This guy gets it

Allen Sanderson wrote:

While I see where you are coming from there are some differences. You mention the Grigri, Petzl released a new product (design), which within months of its release an issue was discovered in the field, when the issue was brought to their attention they could duplicate the failure in the lab. Once duplicated, the recall was issued. 

Contrast that to the beacon being in the field for several years and according to what I have read BD/Pieps worked to understand the problem were not able to fully duplicate it. Though there were issues with switches that were compromised. As such, there was a conflict between the real world and testing. So therein lies the problem when was the problem identified?? 

None of the above is to defend BD/Pieps I used a Pieps for years but have another brand for about 15 years now. I would not also directly compare the Grigri issue to say BD failed.  Though your point is that they are both safety devices is well taken. 

Most of all  product recalls is a process that does not happen as instantaneously like folks would hope. Especially when it may affect them directly. I have dealt with engineering QA issue but not since the mid 1980s. And at that time I got to make the call not to launch a satellite into orbit until it was understood why another did not deploy as expected. There is lots of pressure from all sides when such issues come up.

I've had a Mammut for years and I'm not "personally"  affected beyond the possibility of PTSD from losing friends with these things. It's already a dangerous/selfish game we're all playing, I just don't want anybody to die from a preventable beacon malfunction. 

I get that there's a lot of money and pressure. I'm just not impressed by how they've handled the whole thing. I'm not sure what more they learned in the last 6 months that prompted them to finally issue a recall (besides increasingly bad press and getting sued). 

If they had recalled them before ski season instead of after I'd have no issue. But I imagine that would have required giving out new beacons, whereas now they've had time to manufacture cheap hard cases. 

There are smart business people doing the math behind the scenes. How many more accidents are likely during the delay, how much this loss of faith from a relatively small proportion of their customers (BC skiers) will ultimately cost the company. I suspect they figured they can sell enough Chinese jackets and shoes to continue turning a profit. And they're probably right. And I'm sure someone could spin this into how many good jobs BD is providing that would be put in jeopardy if the recall had been done in the Fall and BD had to give out thousands of free beacons leading to downsizing blah blah... It's never black and white. 

But I'm not gonna give them any more money if there's an alternative, and I'll keep telling everyone that they did a shitty thing. Too little too late. 

jdejace wrote:

 

If they had recalled them before ski season instead of after I'd have no issue. But I imagine that would have required giving out new beacons, whereas now they've had time to manufacture cheap hard cases. 

There are smart business people doing the math behind the scenes. How many more accidents are likely during the delay, how much this loss of faith from a relatively small proportion of their customers (BC skiers) will ultimately cost the company. I suspect they figured they can sell enough Chinese jackets and shoes to continue turning a profit. And they're probably right. And I'm sure someone could spin this into how many good jobs BD is providing that would be put in jeopardy if the recall had been done in the Fall and BD had to give out thousands of free beacons leading to downsizing blah blah... It's never black and white. 

But I'm not gonna give them any more money if there's an alternative, and I'll keep telling everyone that they did a shitty thing. Too little too late. 

They did recall them before the season started. If you owned a defective beacon they notified you. I was notified at the beginning of November and I turned mine in on 16 of November and got my Free new one, a week before Christmas. No hassle no questions asked they even paid shipping. 

That wasn't a recall which came later, it was an upgrade offer after getting roasted online when they initially dug their heels in defensively, and most notably it wasn't free for many people. Some were only offered a "device service." [see comments]

You’re right I’m highlighting they did right by me. I’m not sure why anyone didn’t get a free new one as mine was pretty beat up and the warranty expired a year before I turned it in. I don’t see BD as a evil corporation trying to kill me at least I don’t think they are. Please kolin  powick don’t strangle me with a double length runner I swear I’ll be a good boy!