Gyms double wrapping the top rope roller

Hi everyone, I’m looking for good arguments and info that I can present to the corporate heads of our local gym to help reverse their decision to double wrap their top ropes on the top anchor cylinder. I’ve climbed at dozens of gyms around the world and it’s the first time I’ve seen this setup. It completely sucks.

The standard setup I’ve seen for top rope is the rope passing up and over/through carabiners or a  large cylinder then back down. This particular gym (Mesa Rim in San Diego) wraps the rope over the top cylinder then around it again creating about 540 degrees of contact vs 180. The mechanical resistance in this system is ridiculous and unnecessary.

For example, my wife has a back injury, she can belay fine but in this system she has to haul the rope down to take slack and she tapped out after one climb. I’m also getting my 4yo daughter crusher into climbing and it’s impossible to give her an assist through hard moves by pulling her up a bit, lowering her 44lbs off the climb actually required pulling out slack and whipping it towards the anchor in order to free up the ropes so she’d descend. All in all it was a sucky climbing experience. I spoke to the gym manager and he said that they’ve had nothing but complaints about it but that I’d need some good arguments to convince corporate to set it up with just the ‘over and down’ method.

So, here’s what I’ve come up with:

- the ropes can jamb up making taking slack quickly very difficult, making for a less safe experience for climbers, especially those that climb fast

- the increased friction makes for a less safe experience when climbing with younger/lighter climbers whose weight is negligibly negative against the friction

- rope wear is increased dramatically and rope manufacturers do not recommend rope on rope friction for durability 

- litigious California scaredy cat politics shouldn’t be a reason to make your gym lame. Focus. Ore on training good climbers than getting sued because someone doesn’t know how to belay properly.

Not sure about that last one bearing out, but it’s the real reason. They already require locking belay devices (eg grogri) and they’re clearly scared of people decking after being lowered too quickly. The manager said that the lowering rates with only a single pass over the anchor were unsafe which is simply wrong.

Anyway, end rant. I dropped $1k on a year membership before even getting into the gym as I wanted to help them open up. I’m now regretting that decision but that’s on me.

Hopefully I can talk some sense into them, other than that the gym is pretty damn great.

Any info/help/arguments would be appreciated. I’ll also be putting together a gym group for members to petition. 

This is the epitome of first-world problems.

You're not gonna win this argument, but I love that you called out "California scaredy cat politics" when you made a whole-ass thread to gripe about annoying top rope belays, presumably ahead of a quixotic attempt to change a gym policy.

Here's your solution: stick to lead climbing.

Dawg chill. I've seen this system before and it ain't that bad.

The gyms that I climbed at in Texas had that double wrap with the ropes too. Guess I didn't know any better so it never bothered me.

Starting a serious petition with other like-minded gym goers and gathering signatures would probably be a start. Also $1k for a year membership is insane, but now thinking about it the last gym I climbed at was $80 a month. 

Running a climbing gym seems a little stressful. 

It's Fauci-ism...

One mask is good 2 are better.

One wrap is good 2 are better.

Apply the principle in moderation.

Haha, ok lads. I'm happy to get roasted here and lucky to live in a coutry where first world problems can be a thing. No skin off my nose there. Regardless, I find the practice not only annoying and unnecessary but prohibitive to training good belay technique in climbers, especially those that may want to explore beyond the gym and get outside where standard anchoring techniques will have them wondering why they're suddenly belaying a truck. That's not safe for anyone involved. Plus I like giving my 4yo an occasional assist up a hard route, no shame in that when it keeps her stoked to go climbing again. 

brian n wrote:

It's Fauci-ism...

One mask is good 2 are better.

One wrap is good 2 are better.

Apply the principle in moderation.

Haha, 3 wraps and you'll never come down!

Not a fan of the two wraps-around-pipe TR anchors, but they are here to stay - wall builders sell these anchor systems as part of package.
The are a true PITA, but they do make belaying of heavy individuals very easy. I do agree that this system fails to teach proper belaying technique.
From my experience, pipe anchors are gentler on ropes than the two QL/carabiner/whatever setup - they radius of curvature is much lower.

Not all of these pipe anchors are created equal, ease of belaying also depends a lot on the quality and age of rope being used. I find that sitting into harness and using my weight to pull rope is easier on my hands than pulling rope - once in a while rope develops overlaps and kinks that make it hard to pull. 

Edit - talk to the gym manager if they would allow to tie the other end of rope, or different rope to kid's harness - you can use that to pull the kid down.

The climbing gym at my University back in the day had a rule where you had to clip your harness with 2 steel carabiners for top-roping haha. Wasn't a big deal but a lil overkill. 

Just the nature of gyms, insurance, safety

Never had an issue with this, whether belaying a child or an adult. Nor have I had an issue belaying a speed climber.

Since wrapping the rope is very common, I doubt that your gym is "lame" because of "litigious California scaredy cat politics." And, by the way, the reason gyms are scared of people decking is because it happens.

Maybe it's you. Try:

• "Saw" the rope before tying in so that it's laying flat around the bar and is not against the end plates.
• Don't stand in a position that allows the belay strand to cross over the wrapped rope or rub against the end plates.

If you are pulling in slack you should be able to keep her tight....get stronger! (Joking)

This is done here, as well as preattached Madrock Lifeguard belay devices, and a carabiner on the climber end. Just clip in.

So? 

What you can ask about? Have them check around, the ropes make a bit of a difference in how much friction there is. As they swap them out, they might try that. This gets better as the anchors are used. Also experiment with where you are. Straight out, off to one side, etc.

At my gym, what they have done, is have a few top ropes that are anchored through chains and carabiners, so people can belay with less friction. These are very well signed, but still on the prerigged stuff, though. That's about all you'll get, I'm afraid. 

Gyms are gym climbing, after all, that's the business. Getting people in, with absolutely as low a threshold as possible, is the business model, not training competent outside climbers. They'd be out of business very quickly if they relied on us dirtbags! It's a fitness, and fun, thing, not rock climbing.

Best, Helen

Has anyone else seen people drop 30’ to the deck at the gym? Ever notice when it is double wrapped they get up and walk away?  I wonder how much speed the double wrap scrubs on the way down?  Maybe the “How not to high line” guy can do a test when he gets his drop tower built.  Ya know just for fun.  Any super smart math people have any formulas they could apply to this? 

The trick is to shimmy the rope into the middle of the cylinder before starting, if its on the edge then the friction against the border plate adds too much. I do this and it makes it way easier to belay/lower.

I climb at said MR gym. 

Solution: climb outside. 

Gain weight and start a new group called the THICC BOIS

luke wrote:

Hi everyone, I’m looking for good arguments and info that I can present to the corporate heads of our local gym to help reverse their decision to double wrap their top ropes on the top anchor cylinder. I’ve climbed at dozens of gyms around the world and it’s the first time I’ve seen this setup. It completely sucks.

The standard setup I’ve seen for top rope is the rope passing up and over/through carabiners or a  large cylinder then back down. This particular gym (Mesa Rim in San Diego) wraps the rope over the top cylinder then around it again creating about 540 degrees of contact vs 180. The mechanical resistance in this system is ridiculous and unnecessary.

For example, my wife has a back injury, she can belay fine but in this system she has to haul the rope down to take slack and she tapped out after one climb. I’m also getting my 4yo daughter crusher into climbing and it’s impossible to give her an assist through hard moves by pulling her up a bit, lowering her 44lbs off the climb actually required pulling out slack and whipping it towards the anchor in order to free up the ropes so she’d descend. All in all it was a sucky climbing experience. I spoke to the gym manager and he said that they’ve had nothing but complaints about it but that I’d need some good arguments to convince corporate to set it up with just the ‘over and down’ method.

So, here’s what I’ve come up with:

- the ropes can jamb up making taking slack quickly very difficult, making for a less safe experience for climbers, especially those that climb fast

- the increased friction makes for a less safe experience when climbing with younger/lighter climbers whose weight is negligibly negative against the friction

- rope wear is increased dramatically and rope manufacturers do not recommend rope on rope friction for durability 

- litigious California scaredy cat politics shouldn’t be a reason to make your gym lame. Focus. Ore on training good climbers than getting sued because someone doesn’t know how to belay properly.

Not sure about that last one bearing out, but it’s the real reason. They already require locking belay devices (eg grogri) and they’re clearly scared of people decking after being lowered too quickly. The manager said that the lowering rates with only a single pass over the anchor were unsafe which is simply wrong.

Anyway, end rant. I dropped $1k on a year membership before even getting into the gym as I wanted to help them open up. I’m now regretting that decision but that’s on me.

Hopefully I can talk some sense into them, other than that the gym is pretty damn great.

Any info/help/arguments would be appreciated. I’ll also be putting together a gym group for members to petition. 

Although it's less convenient for some it's the safest option for the gym, they're going to keep it.

When your gym requires you to wear a pink tutu then you will a legitimate gripe. Otherwise work on yer technique sounds like yer a little weak as the double wrap seems to be SOP.

The double roller is a mixed blessing. I like the double roller at MR when I would grab a random partner from the desk ( Precovid / Pre assisted locking). The double roller added that extra friction where I don't worry about some rando dropping my fat 195 pound ass. But there are times when belay others and the rope flips over itself on the roller and it becomes a pain in the ass to pull. I've always thought they should go to a three roller design kinda like the right side on the image below but rotated 90 degrees. 

Having done maintenance for gyms that do this, it'll wear out the ropes faster- the contact point on those bars gets deformed and stiff faster than climbers can pound chalk into the ends. 

I’m not a fan. I’ve nearly been dropped on a TR belay outside when someone who started in the gym (and climbed there plenty) lowered me and it was way faster than they were used to (because of the double wrapped tr pipes in the gym). It caught them off guard. Gyms are going to keep doing it though since it reduces their chance of accidents inside. Unfortunately it comes at the cost of lulling people into wrongly thinking that lots of time TR belaying in the gym translates to being able to safely give a simple TR belay outside