Why all the hate on using two ropes?

How's it going Trad Dads, Hex Addicts, and Crack Fiends? I wanted to hear the opinions on using two ropes for trad climbing. I've been using one rope for years which has been fun and simple, but recently I've been turned on to using double/twins for climbing trad. It gets a lot of strange looks in the states, but after seeing our friends across the ocean using two ropes I've started to see the benefit of it.  Being able to clip a piece of pro while not extending a rope just seems safer and gives you just a little bit more confidence. You can also carry less draws which means less weight and less fiddling and you can pretty much always make it to the next rap station without guessing if your rope will be long enough. I also feel like it gives me just a little more ease if I'm worried about falling because lets face it, two ropes are safer than one. I admit it can be cumbersome to belay on lead or doing multi pitch rope management, but in my eyes it seems like a better system. You don't really have to worry about rope drag or always extending pieces. To me, it just seems better. I guess I want to see why it gets so much hate with people who trad climb and why people roll their eyes when you ask them to belay you on two ropes? People will use tag lines, which I see the benefit of, but you could also use a second climbing rope and that can double your protection on a climb while also ensuring you can do 60m rappels. Thoughts? 

I think climbing with double ropes is a pain. There aren't necessarily weight savings as you say because you are replacing any draws you leave behind with a second rope. They significantly complicate the system

I see the benefit on wandering face climbs, multipitches that require a second rope to get down, or alpine routes where the likelihood of rope damage is higher. I tend to climb crack routes that don't benefit as much from the double rope technique. Even for ice climbing, where many people use twins, I like to use a super skinny single. I like one rope.

I generally use a single when cragging locally because it's mostly single pitch and straight. 

At the Gunks, I often lead on doubles (for the last 10-15 years) and see people using two ropes there more than anywhere else I climb.

Wasn’t aware there was any hate

Not sure if you’re trying to convince yourself or us that double ropes are the way to go.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

I love the logic of carrying two ropes to save weight on a few draws.

Two lockers to attach a belay device is safer than one too, right?

Yeah my lightest dynamic rope is like 7.5 lbs

Better to bring that instead of a handful of alpine draws. 

3 ropes is better

Bought some doubles for the gunks.  climbed on them a handful of times and realized that for most of the stuff I want to climb, there is just not any benefit to more than a single line.  For lots of the easier climbs at the gunks there are wandering parts that could benefit from two ropes, but haven't ever climbed something and thought, "I wish I had two ropes now".  For the harder stuff it just feels completely unnecessary. 

Used them a few times on bigger climbs and understood they had merit, but given the choice again I'd probably just bring a tag and leader line.  I don't climb grit, but it goes without saying that there's obviously a benefit for climbing hard with halves in the UK. 

I've been climbing almost exclusively with half ropes for forty years.  Half ropes don't save weight and they don't help economize on draws.  Their advantages go way beyond reduced friction on wandering routes.  Deploying and handling them is more complex and takes more thought.  A competent belayer is required to realize some of the benefits.  Someone who only or primarily uses a Grigri will need some retraining, both physical and mental.  There's absolutely no advantage for splitters, just two things to get in the way instead of one, but on most other things (including climbs that are purportedly crack climbs and even sport climbs with ground fall potential on certain clips), they have advantages for a competent user.  A certain amount of criticism comes from people who try them and give up before becoming competent users.

Watch how complex this belay technique is, then ask yourself how many of your climbing partners could give you a competent and consistent belay with this technique.

I said BLACK!

Sam Skovgaard wrote:

Watch how complex this belay technique is, then ask yourself how many of your climbing partners could give you a competent and consistent belay with this technique.

Some good advice, but not exhaustive---I could add quite a bit more I think.  It would be a whole 'nother post.

I think he keeps the brake hand too close to the device and would do better to wear gloves.  Also, I don't get the ambidextrous claim.  He's set things up for left-handed braking but I've never encountered a situation that required it.

I think an assisted-braking device is probably best for half-rope belaying, and the CT Alpine Up is the best of the lot for that purpose.  Half and single ropes are getting thinner and thinner and with half-rope technique you will be catching falls on a single strand.  The device has to have enough friction for that, and not all do.  Moreover, the manufacturers' over-optimistic specifications for rope diameters seem to be for what you can rappel on or use for twin-rope technique, not for single-strand braking, so I think many devices are not up to the task of half-rope belaying.  Of the non-AB lot, the only one I know of is the BD ATC Alpine Guide (the "Alpine" modifier is critical here), which they claim has been "optimized" for the 8.1--8.5mm range.

In my experience, half ropes are the way to go with any longer route (5+ pitches), alpine route, longish routes that wander left-right, and routes you think you have a decent chance of wanting to rappel or needing to escape via rappel. Also, I agree there is some additional technical requirement to belay using half rope (double rope) technique.

I prefer single ropes and if I need to do long rappels on a multipitch climb then I'll use my tagline, which isn't adding any weight since I'll be hauling a pack so my partner and I don't need to climb with one on.

Doubles are awesome in a lot of situations.  People who don't like them most likely feel that way because they are lazy and suck at belaying. 

why people roll their eyes when you ask them to belay you on two ropes?

Choice of belay systems is a team decision. If you're the only guy around using doubles, and you're getting push back I can't say I'm surprised. I submit you should be more willing to use single rope technique in those situations and save the doubles for a like-minded and willing partner. The +/- merits of double rope technique aren't going to be terribly convincing to a pick-up partner.

Sam Skovgaard wrote:

Watch how complex this belay technique is, then ask yourself how many of your climbing partners could give you a competent and consistent belay with this technique.

Honestly its not as complex as it seems, like most things once you get used to it, it becomes automatic. Think of manual gear changes or juggling, baffaling at first but then easy when you get it.

Most of the time the ropes are moving at the same pace and its just like using a single, when paying out then taking in one strand for clipping you just let your hand slide up then down the other strand. The only tricky bit really is if you have one strand going out and one coming in, but its rare and when it does its normally pretty obvious which strand is the priority one.

All that said it does need to be learnt, don't just rock up and expect your partner can do it.

I use halfs often but I don't think they are the only and bestest way, I do prefer them in many situations though.

rgold wrote:

A certain amount of criticism comes from people who try them and give up ...

...when they very quickly realize how much the additional mass and friction in the system sux. 

It’s pretty simple - more rope weight - more surface area - a bunch of heady rocket science to somehow turn that into less overall drag on the leader - lol.

Runners - learn to use.

I mostly use them for the rappel/possible retreat capability. Usually ice or alpine climbing though if I thought retreat on a long rock route was at all likely I might bring em. Otherwise I typically don't find the other advantages worth it. Running them through a belay device isn't particularly difficult (I'm sure I could learn to do it better), the extra clutter and time spent uncluttering at anchors is a pain though. I could use a tag line but if I'm carrying extra weight I'd rather get an extra dynamic rope out of it. YMMV.

But in any case half ropes do have advantages (and disadvantages). Don't worry what anyone else thinks, choose what you and your partner judge to be the best system for what you're climbing on any given day.

I climbed extensively on double ropes 05-2010, and thought they were great. I got rid of them a couple years ago, and now think I liked them mostly because they made me feel special.
the rope management is more complicated, both for belaying and keeping ropes orderly. The smaller diameter ropes are more prone to tangling and knotting, and for newer people, the reduced friction can be problematic when rapping. Many double rope systems need a different belay device (especially if belaying in guide mode, where I’ve had them slip). For long raps, I now prefer a tag line. To eliminate drag on wandering routes still requires extending gear, and good rope work.
I used to like using doubles to lead two seconds, but now think that was a little reckless.
I do really like the sterling nano IX (or other triple rated ropes) which can be used like a twin/double in the rare circumstances where thats advantageous, but even when climbing with two ropes (party of 3), I almost always get belayed on a single rope. 

Bill Schick wrote:

...when they very quickly realize how much the additional mass and friction in the system sux. 

It’s pretty simple - more rope weight - more surface area - a bunch of heady rocket science to somehow turn that into less overall drag on the leader - lol.

Runners - learn to use.

I didn't know that tight angle = greater drag than wide angle was heady rocket science :)

There are just some situations where halfs work really well. I can think of a few routes where extending runners for the limited placements available that are widely spaced laterally on a relativly short route would make hitting the deck very likely. That's kind of common with gritstone routes in the UK (in other places such routes might have fixed gear) which is probably why halfs are more popular here as much as the benefits on 'traditional' wandering mountain crag multipitches. So thats where I would use halfs, in other situations I use a single if the that would be most suitable. I'm lucky I have both if you can only afford one go with what best suits the climbing you do.

End of the day there isn't one way that is better than the other in all situations and its often subjective about how big a deal the various strengths and weaknesses are to different people.