2 draws Vs. "proper TR anchor"

Is there actually a benefit to building a proper TR anchor on nice face bolts when someone wants to TR the route?

I've always just rocked two o/o draws and never thought twice about it. Same with all of my regular climbing partners. Maybe if the bolts aren't on the face or something like that I'll build an anchor to extend it, mostly to just reduce rope wear. Recently started climbing with a crew that insists on throwing a quad or something whenever someone is going to top rope. 

Wanted to hear some other opinions before just assuming they are weird.

Dave

2 draws is norm for 1-few TR.   Extended TR / all day use 2 steel lockers on cord or slings.  

I just can't imagine a toproping situation where two opposite and opposed draws would fail

Pete S wrote:

2 draws is norm for 1-few TR.   Extended TR / all day use 2 steel lockers on cord or slings.  

Agreed... But not really what I was asking.

In the context of setting up a TR for someone to climb it afterwards, is there any benefit to building an anchor with lockers & cord/slings?

Schuyler Baer wrote:

I just can't imagine a toproping situation where two opposite and opposed draws would fail

Right on, that's where I'm at too.

Two draws is very typical in recreational settings.

I believe that in the professional community, the preference is “one and a half lockers” (where 1 locker = 2 non-lockers).

Two opposite and opposed Quickdraws is a good option, but is it the best option? In a recreational setting, it's fine a lot of the time. But in professionally guided settings, maybe not. There are things to consider that might lead you to constructing an anchor with additional materials such as: duration of use, lack of visibility of anchor, creating a floating masterpoint, quality of the fixed gear, wandering route or multiple variations with a single anchor etc.

If you're stuck on the Quickdraw anchor, trying equipping a dogbone with 2 locking carabiners and using that for one of your anchor legs. You get the ease of use of a Quickdraw, but with some additional security.

There is no significant advantage.

Some like having a prearranged quad some prefer less specialized equipment. 

Supposed benefits of quad are better load sharing between the bolts.  For two 'nice' bolts the chances that one would fail with two draws but not fail with a quad is very very small. In any case the other bolt is going to hopefully prevent a disaster with both systems unless the installer was completely incompetent.  The bolts were probably 'tested' by the previous group on the route.

2 draws is a proper TR anchor as is a quad.

If it’s just me leading and then my partner following, two QDs usually suffices just fine. Although, more and more I find myself using QDs with lockers on the bottom.

If I’m taking a group who will be running lots of TR laps on a route, I build an actual anchor... especially if any kids are climbing with us. 

Same as Chris - single TR run, I am going to use QDs, a group spending a couple hours TR-ing off the same anchors - I bring pre-rigged quad.

mbk wrote:

Two draws is very typical in recreational settings.

I believe that in the professional community, the preference is “one and a half lockers” (where 1 locker = 2 non-lockers).

LOL “one and a half lockers”

Fucking guides, man.

I usually just use my pre-built quad setup, but I also will go between sport and trad routes without really thinking about it so the extra material has come in handy a couple times. 

amarius wrote:

Same as Chris - single TR run, I am going to use QDs, a group spending a couple hours TR-ing off the same anchors - I bring pre-rigged quad.

What is the rational for this?  If the anchor is good enough to hold a run or two is should be good enough for hundreds of runs.  Do you have a steel locker on your quad?  

climber pat wrote:

What is the rational for this?  If the anchor is good enough to hold a run or two is should be good enough for hundreds of runs.  Do you have a steel locker on your quad?  

I think it's a cost/benefit or risk/reward decision. with a couple laps, there's limited opportunity for the 'biners to get cross loaded or flipped around or leveraged open, and to me, usually doesn't justify the extra time to set an anchor w/ master point or quad. As more people do laps on the TR, there's more opportunity for something to happen, which justifies the time/equipment to build an anchor instead of using draws. 

When doing a lot of top-roping with a group I carry a set of 3 non-locking ovals (two steel one aluminum) and use them all opposite and opposed. this reduces wear, and helps keep the rope oriented parallel to the wall. 

I have an escalation. Generally, with one-two people, just draws. two-four, I may use one locking and one regular draw. more than that I set up a full anchor. 

I see it the same way I choose what rope I use. I regularly use a 9mm rope when climbing, and it's plenty safe, but I don't want to have a bunch of people top-roping on it all day. If that's the plan, I'll probably bring a 9.8/10mm that can better take the abuse. 

My TR anchor draws = nylon 60cm slings - sometimes an extension helps with rope drag/rub/wear - 1 with lockers and 1 with non-lockers, rope biners are Edelrid Bulletproof

climber pat wrote:

What is the rational for this?  If the anchor is good enough to hold a run or two is should be good enough for hundreds of runs.  Do you have a steel locker on your quad?  

Quad distributes load to bolts better. I started using pre-rigged anchor after setting up TR on a couple of popular routes where the anchor were definitely not getting equal loads - one of the bolts was noticeably loose. My thinking is - if someone struggles on a route with unequal anchor placement/loading it will have consequences over time; a little extra step on my side may prolong lifetime of fixed gear. And, it makes me looks very professional when I whip out my premade quad with TWO steel lockers! 

amarius wrote:

Quad distributes load to bolts better. I started using pre-rigged anchor after setting up TR on a couple of popular routes where the anchor were definitely not getting equal loads - one of the bolts was noticeably loose. My thinking is - if someone struggles on a route with unequal anchor placement/loading it will have consequences over time; a little extra step on my side may prolong lifetime of fixed gear. And, it makes me looks very professional when I whip out my premade quad with TWO steel lockers! 

Unequal loading should have no effect on the bolts.  That loose bolt needs tightening of replacement.  Probably the installer did not use a torque wrench and did not properly tighten the bolt in the 1st place.

Using locking draws for TR can be nice if you find yourself TR'ing a lot and wearing through draws. Steel isn't going to wear out as fast, and then you don't have to replace the carabiners on your quickdraws as often. I personally don't TR routes enough for this to be necessary, but I do have designated lockers for rapelling, so I don't end up mixing them with my other lockers. I've retired one locker already and am probably going to have to retire my current one this season, along with my atc. Unless you are doing a LOT of TR climbing and there is friction on your route I doubt it's worth the effort to have dedicated TR draws, but that's just my 2 cents.

Pete S wrote:

2 draws is norm for 1-few TR.   Extended TR / all day use 2 steel lockers on cord or slings.  

I’ve never once thought of a steel carabiner for anything except a fixed anchor/mussy. I don’t think I know anyone who carries heavy steel biners climbing except maybe some old quick draws.

Scurvy Dave wrote:

Is there actually a benefit to building a proper TR anchor on nice face bolts when someone wants to TR the route?

I've always just rocked two o/o draws and never thought twice about it. Same with all of my regular climbing partners. Maybe if the bolts aren't on the face or something like that I'll build an anchor to extend it, mostly to just reduce rope wear. Recently started climbing with a crew that insists on throwing a quad or something whenever someone is going to top rope. 

Wanted to hear some other opinions before just assuming they are weird.

Dave

I consider a pair of quick-draws to be "safe enough" for a one climber, one follower situation -- as the follower is also protected by other draws on the route, except near the very end.  If I'm putting up a TR for more than just one other person, I prefer the extra safety margin of 4 lockers.

But, ignoring the (arguably marginal) safety advantage, the other advantage is wear.  Quick-draw carabiners are often chosen for lightness, which tends to mean less metal and they will wear faster. By using beefy (I don't bother with steel, but beefy aluminum) lockers for the rope-side of the anchor, I put the wear on thick metal, and the simple (usually round stock) lockers also wear far better than the thin/light/T-shaped carabiners use on many sport draws.

I haven't seen a few things mentioned:

When using two QDs, the rope needs to pass through both biners as if they were one point of contact. Or they need to be sufficiently far away for to be considered totally separate (like in the vertical French style anchor bolts that are becoming more common) This prevents coiling of the rope. I can't count how many times I've seen people at sport crags cursing their coiled rope and when they did it to themselves with their anchor building choice. 

Second the draws need to have a small angle between them. I forget an exact number (less than 50 degrees?), but as soon as the angle increases the force placed on each draw skyrockets. This not only increases chance of failure, but increases wear on your system.

Aside from the situations above, there are obvious times when a built anchor is needed. Like you need flexibility in the system (the biners spines sit on the rock), or the you need length to keep the QD from bending in half or the rope from dragging over an edge. 

In modern sport crags these are usually taken into consideration by the setter and overall moot. But two draws wasn't always the norm, and also there are plenty of routes that were bolted before it was the thoughtful, deliberate process it is today.

Its important that climbers are experienced enough to recognize these situations and adjust accordingly. People are always searching for unicorn solutions, that are best in all situations. In climbing that simply does not exist. All knots, bends, anchors, etc. have their advantages and disadvantages, and the 1 out of 100 times that a climber's standard way of doing things doesn't work and they dont even recognize it let alone have a practiced, alternate solution is when accidents happen.

Sidenote: if you want all your sport climbs to be safe for two QDs, donate to ASCA. They do a wonderful job of making old sport climbs safe. Hardware ain't cheap.

Just remember kids, the best TR anchor is constructed with your partner's kit, not yours.  

You can bank on it.