1/4" quick-links. Am I going to die?

Am I gonna die? I just installed these for a couple perma draws and an anchor at a crag that is secret (under development) and so doesn't really see traffic. Decent chance the permas will be whipped on. WLL is 640 lbs. At first I thought it was a 4:1 safety factor and so this seemed adequate on paper, but when I saw them on the hangers it just felt wrong / didn't inspire confidence. I double checked the packaging and it is made in china, making me question what the safety factor really is. The manufacturer is called Ben-Mor. I feel like I should swap these out... Am I overthinking it or is this indeed sketch?

Edited for below comments... The breaking strength of QLs is usually 3-5x the WLL. For example chain with a WLL of 4kN has a breaking strength of 16-20kN. Climbing gear is rated to breaking strength.

There is no way I would use 1/4” for perma draws.   I think the quick links I have on my perma draws are rated to 35kn and the chain is rated similar.  

I hope your post is a troll or you may actually die.  

The smallest i ever see used is 5/16” for a permadraw. I’ve only seen a 1/4” link used once (at a top anchor) and I immediately swapped it out for a 5/16” I had on hand

Um. 

Would you whip on a 3 kN carabiner, anchor, or hanger? I've seen a chock fashioned out of a lego block that is every bit as strong as your anchor...

Is the 4:1 safety factor relative you your body weight? 

If it's you that's doing the whipping, you're a contender to win a Darwin Award. If it's someone else, the lawyers will call it grievous negligence.

In the daintiest of minor falls, you'll be exerting about 3 times your body weight on the anchor; because Newton's 2nd law. The working load limit of 1900 almost upgrades you to the strength of most cams and nuts--which are the personal property of individual climbers and thus the history, inspection, maintenance, retirement can be reasonably expected, unlike your bolt. 

Most lead falls have a fall factor of 0.2-0.7 and generate 2-5kN of force on the top piece of gear.

1kN =~225 lbs

So with a small whip you can easily hit over that 640 number. 

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/kn-ratings/#:~:text=Most%20lead%20falls%20have%20a,(around%201kN%20of%20force).

dave custer wrote:

I've seen a chock fashioned out of a lego block 

You have a picture of that? Ideally a video with someone aiding or taking a whip?

My understanding is that WLL (working load limit) is not the same as (breaking limit). Climbing gear is rated to it's breaking limits... so whatever these values are you can multiply them by 3-5x for comparable strength rating to climbing carabiners, for example. Am I missing something??

Assuming a safety factor of 3x-4x, a QL rated to 640lbs has a breaking limit of 1950-2560lbs (8.6-11.3 kN). This seems borderline but not suicidal.

The 5/16" QLs have a WLL of 1550lbs. With a safety factor of 4x that means this will hold 28kN. I think I will upgrade to these. I don't see how this could be in inadequate.

I’d highly recommend you check what you are using. Here’s the Spec sheet for your questionable hardware selection. If you can’t take the time to check and understand the hardware you are placing, maybe keep your crag secret forever.

C Williams wrote:

I’d highly recommend you check what you are using. Here’s the Spec sheet for your questionable hardware selection. If you can’t take the time to check and understand the hardware you are placing, maybe keep your crag secret forever.

I looked at that spec sheet already. It does not correspond to the packaging which states a lower WLL of 640lbs. I can see why you might have thought I was being lazy, but that's not the case and your last sentence was a douchy comment. I came here for external input so I can change things to an accepted safety standard, if needed, before making others aware of the crag. I was advised 1/4" QLs by a local developer but wanted further opinions as it seemed sketchy.

Fortunately it is also a somewhat heinous approach so it's very unlikely anyone will stumble back there in the 1-2 days before I can return

This has been discussed before. The US has no real standard, but the EU standard for fixed gear is a minimum of 25kn. Camp sells a 25kn rated 1/4" quicklink that I use on one of the two anchor points TOP quicklink, in a two QL setup, but I'd never consider it for a perma. Permas take a beating with all the falls, and the movement of those falls, so best to have some extra material in there for a margin of safety. 5/16 is my go to for Permas, 3/8 is just too clunky. I use 3/8 for the BOTTOM quicklinks on my anchors when lowering is intended.

I wouldn’t even use 1/4 inch for rapping.   It might be “good enough” but why not over do it instead of under do it?   You can also look at Climb Tech or Fixe Hardware to see what their chains and perma draws are, if you had you would have realized 1/4 inch is way too small.  

1/4" is too small. Swap them out for 5/16" ASAP.

Don't use zinc plated hardware either.

Yer gonna die.... seriously, if it’s an undeveloped Craig, why not use old quick draws w/biners???  Or buy some cheap Amazon gear.   Just found a 5 pack of normal sized generic steel locking ovals for 8.84, that’s 1.75 per biner.  23kn ovatti branded.  I wouldnt use it, but gotta be better than 1/4 hardware store.   

Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

I looked at that spec sheet already. It does not correspond to the packaging which states a lower WLL of 640lbs. I can see why you might have thought I was being lazy, but that's not the case and your last sentence was a douchy comment.

Yeah, my response was a bit harsh, I misread and thought you were talking about permanent placements. I’ve had to cut off a bunch of stuck links lately and it’s a bit of a sore spot.

 I’d still avoid using 1/4” links, unless they are the rated 6mm stainless Kong links. Maillon Rapide also makes a stainless 6mm link with a 30kN mbs. 5/16” stainless will hold up better to wear on the hanger, and are easier to clip into if you are working the route.

While 1/4" maybe technically "strong enough", they can get gouged from the hanger if they see repeated falls, thus reducing the strength of an already marginal QL. I prefer to use 3/8 or 10mm QL on perma draws for that reason, totally overkill from a strength stand point, but with more metal in contact with the hanger means more durability.

Highlander wrote:

While 1/4" maybe technically "strong enough", they can get gouged from the hanger if they see repeated falls, thus reducing the strength of an already marginal QL. I prefer to use 3/8 or 10mm QL on perma draws for that reason, totally overkill from a strength stand point, but with more metal in contact with the hanger means more durability.

1/4” isn’t even close to “technically” strong enough if being used for perma draws.   A couple of whips or maybe just one good whip and it will break.  

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

1/4” isn’t even close to “technically” strong enough if being used for perma draws.   A couple of whips or maybe just one good whip and it will break.  

Thanks for sharing your wisdom Kevin. Your posts really helped in ways that other posts did not. I was getting lost in numbers and using math to try and make decisions, but your, like, opinions really cleared it up for me.

Appreciate the informative posts. I'm convinced, I will upgrade to 5/8 or 3/8. Thanks for the... Discussion?

rocknice2 wrote:

Don't use zinc plated hardware either.

Oh wait, maybe the flame war is not over yet! What is wrong with using zinc- or chromium- plated steel for chains? This just seems like a pedantic comment, but I would like to know if I am missing a part of the picture.

• bolts and hangers all stainless
• low-corrosion environments
• is the norm in our local climbing area, chains still solid 10-20 years later
• they can be easily inspected by looking at them

I see no reason to drop 5x the price on stainless for this lol

Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

Oh wait, maybe the flame war is not over yet! What is wrong with using zinc- or chromium- plated steel for QL and chains? 

Because they rust.

Even in dry climates...they just don't last as long.  

Really have tried to encourage folks to use all stainless even for their rapides, chains and rings.  One and done.  

I see the case against it for QLs due to difficult removal. I actually edited comment before you posted, while drinking my morning coffee. Even for QLs though, some of the most prolific developers in Ontario have all advised that this concern over SS quicklinks is BS and that when rusted they can easily be wrenched open.

For the chain? Who cares? Easily replaceable in 10-20 years when it is rusted. A foot of plated is $4 and of stainless is ~$20.

Edit (post limit reached): I see the value in not having to worry about twenty years down the road. Even then, though, In this case we are talking about an area that nobody has been to in decades and may never gain traction as a climbing spot. It's basically a spot only I am interested in, at least currently. Maybe if it becomes a thing it could be worthwhile putting stainless chains in. Even at popular Ontario cliffs like Lion's Head perma chains are galvanized, and get replaced as needed. Everyone seems happy with it. I'm not fully in the know, but that's what developers have told me and what is hanging on the rock.

Appreciate your constructive and non-hostile input Brian!