Adjustable dasies and adjustable fifi (Alfifi)...are both necessary?

Long time climber but aid newb here.  I've been acquiring gear, books and learning the basics of aid.  I'm also an over-optimizer so this question might be very premature (no actual wall experience yet).  Feel free to tell me to quit thinking and go climbing.

Onto the question. My mentor uses the Alfifi hook and I found it to be a very cool device, but perhaps a bit on the heavy side.  We were also playing with the Petzl Evolv adjustable lanyard/daisy.  My question is, doesn't an adjustable lanyard like the Evolv play effectively the same role as the adjustable fifi hook? If one is able to pull in slack on the lanyard and rest on it, what's the point of a fifi hook?  Does it just get you closer/higher?  I understand that the Alfifi can also be released under load, which seems to be a nice feature (the Evolv is not very smooth when fully loaded), but is this the only reason for it?  Has anyone tried adjustable daisies/Evolv paired with a standard (fixed length) fifi?  

Cheers and thanks for any input!

Hey Nick! There was some good discussion on this topic a few weeks ago that can be found here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120302316/adjustable-daisys-vs-adjustable-fifi

But basically, yes they would play the same role and it comes down to preference. I use the alfifi and am a big fan. Some people use the evolv for the same purpose and prefer that system. One advantage to the evolv is that it is rated for bounce testing and attaching yourself to the anchor at the end of a pitch. People who use the evolv typically replace the factory cord with an 8 mm cord, and supposedly tie it off in a way that gets you closer to the piece.

I like the alfifi because it is fast, smooth, and I'm used to it.

I don't see any reason to use a traditional fifi other than going lightweight on low angle terrain. It requires way more use of your arms on vertical/overhanging terrain. 

The alfifi/fifi hook does get you closer to your piece. And the alfifi is easier to release to top step than adjustables. (Generally adjustables will be a cluster on the ladder/piece more so than a fifi will be, multiply that by the amount of times you adjust over the course of the wall and the energy and time expended is considerable. 

So why even use an adjustable daisy if you're using an alfifi? Mostly for roofs (where you're hanging in space) Or reachy traverses. The adjustable allows you an extra "hand" that can be tightened and loosened as you move through the pieces in an always-tensioned mode. 

I've used every conceivable combination of fifi/adjustable fifi/alfifi/no fifi and daisy/adjustable daisy/no daisy. The best combination I've found is alfifi plus no daisy for walls where there's no roofs or reachy traverses and alfifi plus aftermarket modified camp swings for the adjustable daisy on routes that have roofs and or reachy traverses.

Stan McKnight wrote:

Hey Nick! There was some good discussion on this topic a few weeks ago that can be found here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120302316/adjustable-daisys-vs-adjustable-fifi

But basically, yes they would play the same role and it comes down to preference. I use the alfifi and am a big fan. Some people use the evolv for the same purpose and prefer that system. One advantage to the evolv is that it is rated for bounce testing and attaching yourself to the anchor at the end of a pitch. People who use the evolv typically replace the factory cord with an 8 mm cord, and supposedly tie it off in a way that gets you closer to the piece.

I like the alfifi because it is fast, smooth, and I'm used to it.

I don't see any reason to use a traditional fifi other than going lightweight on low angle terrain. It requires way more use of your arms on vertical/overhanging terrain. 

Doh, shoulda' done a search first.

Thanks for the input anyway, sounds like my intuition was fairly close - one can use either but there's no real reason to use both, and which to use is a matter of preference.

Fail Falling wrote:

The alfifi/fifi hook does get you closer to your piece. And the alfifi is easier to release to top step than adjustables. (Generally adjustables will be a cluster on the ladder/piece more so than a fifi will be, multiply that by the amount of times you adjust over the course of the wall and the energy and time expended is considerable. 

So why even use an adjustable daisy if you're using an alfifi? Mostly for roofs (where you're hanging in space? Or reachy traverses. The adjustable allows you an extra "hand" that can be tightened and loosened as you move through the pieces in an always-tensioned mode. 

I've used every conceivable combination of fifi/adjustable fifi/alfifi/no fifi and daisy/adjustable daisy/no daisy. The best combination I've found is alfifi plus no daisy for walls where there's no roofs or reachy traverses and alfifi plus aftermarket modified camp swings for the adjustable daisy on routes that have roofs and or reachy traverses.

Rad, very excellent insight Kevin, thanks!  I could see how Alfifi & no adjustable daisies could be the best for moderate terrain where complex equalizing scenarios are unlikely to happen.  

No daisies makes me nervous for just starting out - seems like if a piece blew while testing it (unlikely for moderate terrain?), you could loose both the piece and your ladder, which seems bad.  Also, since the Evolv is dynamic, seems like it also provides that extra bit of "oh shit" protection in the unlikely daisy fall scenario (maybe there's other ways to totally prevent this but seems like a case of planning for the worst-case is wise?) 

Sounds like I need to try all the configurations and see what I like best!

Nick Henscheid wrote:

Rad, very excellent insight Kevin, thanks!  I could see how Alfifi & no adjustable daisies could be the best for moderate terrain where complex equalizing scenarios are unlikely to happen.  

No daisies makes me nervous for just starting out - seems like if a piece blew while testing it (unlikely for moderate terrain?), you could loose both the piece and your ladder, which seems bad.  Also, since the Evolv is dynamic, seems like it also provides that extra bit of "oh shit" protection in the unlikely daisy fall scenario (maybe there's other ways to totally prevent this but seems like a case of planning for the worst-case is wise?) 

Sounds like I need to try all the configurations and see what I like best!

To prevent daisy falls, what your testing sequence should look like is: 

1. Place new piece, 
2. Clip ladder to new piece, 
3. Clip lead line into the previous piece you're still standing in, 
4. Ease onto new piece until you're standing in both ladders, while fifi'd into and holding onto the previous ladder (so if the new piece does pop you'll be fine on the previous ladder) 
5. Fifi into new piece/ladder and unclip ladder from previous piece, 
6. Bounce test the hell out of the new piece. 

With this sequence you'll never face a daisy fall. Do I do this every time? Nope. Do I do it every time I should do it? Nope. But tbh, I'm not that concerned with daisy falls as I've taken multiple factor 2 falls onto my daisies and they haven't been too bad, but this does not seem to be the general experience my peers have had. 

If you're worried about dropping the ladder or losing them when a piece blows, but you want to move in the direction of daisy-less climbing, then just use some thin 4mm cord to use as a leash. 

Nick Henscheid wrote:

seems like it also provides that extra bit of "oh shit" protection in the unlikely daisy fall scenario 

Am I the only one who doesn’t worry about the dreaded Daisy Fall at all? Does that make me totally stupid? I mean- if I think it’s a dicey piece I’ll clip it and get the Daisy off it sooner than later- but I don’t stress that much over the scenario.. I’d guess that most falls I’ve taken aid climbing were Daisy Falls.. 

seems like Kevin’s fix (clip the Daisy to the aider clip loop) fixes it well enough.

Anyway- just wondering out loud

OP- static Daisy and Alfifi FTW iMHO 

One cheap alternative to the alfifi is a Kong adjustable fifi. I've never used an Alfifi (and would likely become an instant convert if I did), but for completeness' sake...you can add this option somewhere on your list. Note that the 'right' cord on that adjustable is key: too small and you can experience the delights of its sudden and unexpected release under tension, too big and your forearms will become big and burly trying to extend it. 

Since 1974 I have found exactly two aiders at the base of El Cap and know of no one who has ever lost one.
I’ve gone 50 feet twice, 40 feet once and numerous smaller falls and have never lost an aider.
Losing an aider is a far overblown issue. 

Mark Hudon wrote:

Since 1974 I have found exactly two aiders at the base of El Cap and know of no one who has ever lost one.
I’ve gone 50 feet twice, 40 feet once and numerous smaller falls and have never lost an aider.
Losing an aider is a far overblown issue. 

Randomly there was a post somewhere about a week ago where a guy lost his ladder on El Cap when his piece blew while testing and was posting up to see if anyone had found it along to base. 

Mark Hudon wrote:

Since 1974 I have found exactly two aiders at the base of El Cap and know of no one who has ever lost one.
I’ve gone 50 feet twice, 40 feet once and numerous smaller falls and have never lost an aider.
Losing an aider is a far overblown issue. 

Were there pieces still clipped to those 2 aiders? 

Mark Hudon wrote:

Since 1974 I have found exactly two aiders at the base of El Cap and know of no one who has ever lost one.
I’ve gone 50 feet twice, 40 feet once and numerous smaller falls and have never lost an aider.
Losing an aider is a far overblown issue. 

I saw one guy drop an aider on the first pitch of lurking fear. No biggie tho because it slid down to the ground right next to his belayer.

For me after first seeing Mark write about it on these pages I’ve aspired to no aiders and practice that way. 

Hey Mark- or Keven, or whoever...

(Sorry to derail OPs post)

I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Daisy’less system.. it never occurred to me- and seems sort of crazy, but I’m assuming there must be solid reasons for using it and little/no downside despite what most of us Daisy-Lovers think would be the problem (going through Aiders like WAG Bags)

The obvious big question is Why?

But also- how do you not drop them- and if you pull a piece you’re on how do you not drop the aider and the piece.. 

I also assume you still need 2 daisy’s of some kind to tether in to anchors and your jugs?

Super interested in the answers.. 

Quinn, I’m a big wall Gumby compared to Mark and Kevin, but in my experience climbing daisy-less is way less of a cluster. Less stuff on your harness, you don’t worry about crossing the daisies if it is more convenient to put the ladder back on the opposite side from where it came, and it just feels faster and cleaner.

As far as dropping aiders it’s never come close to happening for me... I think it is far less of a problem in practice than in theory. You are usually holding the aider when bounce testing or at least have a foot in it. I’ve pulled numerous pieces bounce testing without a daisy and it always just ends up attached to the aider, which is in my hand or around my foot.

I’d definitely recommend giving it a try, I had similar doubts before making the switch.

And yes you do still need daisies to attach to your jugs

Just my 2 cents... 

I go daisieless and have never dropped one yet.   If I’m testing a piece I’m holding on to the aider so if the piece blows I’m holding it.  I suppose I’ll drop one some day but that’s why I carry a super lightweight spare aider.  

My first 7 ElCap routes I was terrified of dropping my aiders.  3 routes ago I went leashless.  Adjustable daisies only when jugging or for one or two moves on roofs... Leashless is by far my preferred method.  So much more freedom and so much less cluster.  Mark and I just did Tempest both leading all pitches leashless.    I should have listened to Mark years ago and cut the cord...   haha.  

Do you all realize that the third ascent of the Nose was done in 2.5 days? The route was 95% aid climbing and all pitons.

Why?

Because those guys used to know how to stand in their slings and not fuck around. Standing in slings was natural. These days, people need to haul themselves up their aiders, carry way too much gear, spend way too much time placing it and need to be attached to the wall at all times.

 Learn to balance in your aiders, learn the rest step, learn to “free climb” in your aiders. You’re not a Ken/Barbie doll just hanging in slings, you are an active, moving, balancing living human.

You’ll get tangled up in your aiders if you pull a piece and fall. Don’t worry about it.

And also, WTF, doesn’t your partner have a set of aiders also? You drop one, use one of theirs! What’s the BFD?

The rest step.
See how I have my right foot in my top step and tucked under my butt? I’m totally locked in, relaxed and comfortable. I did the whole Shield without using daisies. 

I have absolutely no real say in the matter.  But looking at ur picture Marc.. looks like you can afford to drop an aider.... considering you have 4 on you! 

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

Were there pieces still clipped to those 2 aiders? 

No.

I have heard an extra third aider referred to as a floater. I can personally testify that this is a serious misnomer.  But if I hadn’t been used to dropping my two regular aiders onto their leashes, I wouldn’t have accidentally tried to make the third one float.

Alex Ghiggeri wrote:

I have absolutely no real say in the matter.  But looking at ur picture Marc.. looks like you can afford to drop an aider.... considering you have 4 on you! 

They are two sets, two on one biner.