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Chalk bans

Jake G · · Maryland · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 10
Spider Savage wrote:

Things to do to live a better life:

1. Quit smoking weed.  ,/

2. Quit drinking.  ,/

3. Quit eating sugar. ,/

4. Stop using chalk.  

I don't want to stop using chalk. I like it. No I love it. Seriously, try climbing anything hard during the hot humid 6 months of summer on the east coast. Then without those other things what are you supposed to do while you are waiting for the fall because you don't use chalk and your bored of climbing V1s and 5.7s?

Franck Vee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 260
Steve Climber wrote:

I've only been to the red a handful of times so maybe a local could chime in here, but I think it's actually the opposite for chalk marks on overhung routes there, ie lots of it is steep enough that rain never/rarely washes the chalk off. It seemed like every semi-travelled route there had everything that could conceivably be a hold covered in chalk. That's the way it also is with some spots in Tennessee. I've often fantasized about hauling a power washer out to the wall...

Also it seems a little pompous to issues blanket statements about "I don't need to use any chalk so no one else should need it either!!" There's definitely a huge spectrum of how much people's hands sweat, the type of rock and type of climbing you're doing etc. Anyone that says they don't need chalk should come climb in the south in July lol 

I thought my position was clear enough, but then maybe it would have been nice of me to add the tags: <sarcasm> (post) </sarcasm>

Jake G · · Maryland · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 10
Frank Stein wrote:

The problem with colored chalk is that the pigment creates permanent stains. White chalk, though visible, can be washed off with water. 

I don't buy that argument. Maybe the stuff I use is different from what was available back the day. But it washes right out of a white cotton tee-shirt with no staining. Infact it even fades right out of stuff that I don't wash just like regular chalk does too, like my crashpads and baseball caps. 

Jake G · · Maryland · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 10

You know I'm going to vent now. Why do I get some much resistance everytime I bring this up? All I'm saying is maybe try something that changes NOTHING at all about how you climb. You all think it's so silly that there are people out there who care about messes of chalk all over basically everything within site of a popular trail or overlook parkinglot. Yet if someone throws a cigarette butt on the ground or drops a piece of tape it's the end of the world. What happened to climbers having respect for nature and leave no trace and all that? 

Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 16

How about the people that want to use chalk, can, and the people that don't want to use chalk, don't. Everybody happy. 

Seriously, if someone was lobbying to ban chalk, I would also ask them to also remove all of the bolts...

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,687
Frank Stein wrote:

The problem with colored chalk is that the pigment creates permanent stains. White chalk, though visible, can be washed off with water. 

Anyone who's ever worked a crag clean-up knows that's not so true. Caked-on chalk, mixed over days/weeks/months with skin oils, does not come off with water alone. I have a theory that the chalk forms insoluble magnesium carboxylates, but unfortunately I no longer have access to the analytical techniques to verify this. 

Cherokee Nunes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2015 · Points: 0

Seriously, if someone was lobbying to ban chalk, I would also ask them to also remove all of the bolts...

That would be a bad idea my friend. Chalk and bolts are the climbers' impact achilles heel in this country. Putting them into one statement like that is sure to garner agreement from those who would eagerly ban both. "You're right!" they will say, and revise the draft accordingly.

If chalk makes the difference that its users maintain it does, how can it not be considered aid? Will all the routes done with chalk one day become viewed at the barry bonds era of tainted records? Will chalkless ascents of the hardest routes become the next logical proving grounds for the young bloods? FCAs?

I sure as hell don't know. But i do know chalk is a (mild) pollutant and our day of reckoning with land managers is still approaching.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,252
Buck Rio wrote:

How about the people that want to use chalk, can, and the people that don't want to use chalk, don't. Everybody happy. 

Seriously, if someone was lobbying to ban chalk, I would also ask them to also remove all of the bolts...

That’s pretty much the conclusion every one of these chalk ban threads lurches on to. Of course, you haven’t yet hit on banning climbing altogether to save the micro flora, so maybe I’m a little early.

Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 16
Colonel Mustard wrote:

That’s pretty much the conclusion every one of these chalk ban threads lurches on to. Of course, you haven’t yet hit on banning climbing altogether to save the micro flora, so maybe I’m a little early.

That was my point....no land manager gives a fuck about chalk, only climbers care. 

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,252
Buck Rio wrote:

That was my point....no land manager gives a fuck about chalk, only climbers care. 

True enough, cutting off the nose to spite the face.

Frank Stein · · Picayune, MS · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205
Buck Rio wrote:

That was my point....no land manager gives a fuck about chalk, only climbers care. 

But land managers do monitor these forums. Just ask the Bighorn Climbers’ Coalition (aka Tensleep). 

Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 25
Buck Rio wrote:

How about the people that want to use chalk, can, and the people that don't want to use chalk, don't. Everybody happy. 

Seriously, if someone was lobbying to ban chalk, I would also ask them to also remove all of the bolts...

Well, that would be the no brainer IF everyone who used chalk cleaned the route upon rappel or lowering so that it is pristine for the next person.  

I say If you’re a big sweat hog climbing on a hot humid summer day, then just dry tool it ;)

Seriously though, my totally scientific studies have proved that chalk is 93% psychological, but  can legitimately be used sparingly following the easy to remember 80/80/6/7/8/11 rule (found in an appendix of older copies of Freedom of the Hills)

That means when temps and humidity exceed 80 in the months of June/July/August and you’re on an 11 or above, go ahead and dip without shame.

When conditions are outside the bounds of this rule, and I cannot use chalk in good conscience, I clip an old washcloth in lieu of chalk bag.   I get the same psychological rest of relaxing for a “dry off”, it’s effective, it’s lighter, it leaves no trace, and if I blow a crux, it’s effective emergency bum wipe.

Serious opportunity for company logo advertising/marketing  in all the lame buttshot photos people take....I’d pay a big fee for an Arcteryx or Patagonia rag over my nasty old washcloth.   In fact I’m gonna talk to them....

Daniel Kat · · Denver, CO · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 3,938

(unpopular?) opinion: I like the aesthetic of chalk - it's like an echo of the movements used to achieve the somewhat-impressive human feat of scaling a large vertical(ish) rockface. I see it kind of like flags/sings/statues/plaques on top of a mountain people have hiked - unnatural but cool to see.

Also, I find that due to my hands, I climb about a number grade or two less without chalk. Also, also, I probably use a bit more than I need.

Been trying out liquid chalk lately, not sure if this reduces the amount of chalk/visual impact left behind? Also, I think there are some places in Utah where you have to use colored chalk, or I hear some people mix dirt/sand from the ground in with their chalk, to make it match the rock. I don't have a problem see it, I like it, but if other people are bothered by it, I think it's worth discussing. I think it matters less in areas that are mostly/entirely frequented by climbers vs more public areas like national parks visible from hiking trails - but also if it's a lot of climbers that take issue with it, then I guess it's an issue in climber-only areas too. Especially on more-than-vertical routes, where it is less likely to wash off.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375

If people are honest, chalk is often a habit, something done automatically, needed or not. I think it's just an assumption, starting out, like having shoes that are so tight your toes are bent under and stacked like cord wood.

I don't see less chalk happening outside anytime soon, not when every hold in a gym is indistinguishable from all the other holds, viewed from above. "Is that right foot my pink? Or is that the red route?" Sheesh.

Try going without, and people stare at you. 

And, ummmm. White on rock, outside? 

That isn't always deposited by climbers. Goody.

If that shit doesn't seem to ever go away, why do you think chalk will?

I never got started, so I don't bother. If it's hot enough to sweat off the local basalt here, the rock is also going to be slicker than greased glass. Not to mention black rubber will spontaneously combust. 

In the gym? If I'm sweating off, they need to crank the AC up. But, yes, everyone is different. 

Chalk can make hands and surfaces more slippery, so that excess chalk isn't doing anyone who follows you any favors, either.

Best, Helen

Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 16
Daniel Kaye wrote:

(Been trying out liquid chalk lately, not sure if this reduces the amount of chalk/visual impact left behind? Also, I think there are some places in Utah where you have to use colored chalk, or I hear some people mix dirt/sand from the ground in with their chalk, to make it match the rock. I don't have a problem see it, I like it, but if other people are bothered by it, I think it's worth discussing. I think it matters less in areas that are mostly/entirely frequented by climbers vs more public areas like national parks visible from hiking trails - but also if it's a lot of climbers that take issue with it, then I guess it's an issue in climber-only areas too. Especially on more-than-vertical routes, where it is less likely to wash off.

I like the liquid chalk....after I get done applying sunscreen, my hands are greasy and the alcohol in liquid chalk strips that off and makes a base so your powder chalk works better. If I am crack climbing, I'll put it on my whole hand (I don't tape) up to my wrist, and generally don't need to use as much powder chalk. I sweat like a pig, and I generally have to bring changes of underwear and t-shirts if I want to be comfortable, so not using chalk isn't really feasible.

Vaughn · · Colorado · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 55

Has anyone ever tried antiperspirant on their hands as a substitute for chalk? Something like this one: Carpe Antiperspirant

Patrick L · · Idyllwild · Joined Jan 2019 · Points: 0

I've been bouldering with some people who spilled an entire chalk bucket (accidentally) all over the rocks but just laughed about it. I also see boulderers throwing tape on the ground. I hate to say it, but I honestly think these are people who went from gym climbing to outdoor bouldering, with no prior experience camping/appreciating nature/etc. 

Another thing; imagine being a photographer who is not a climber, who is interested in geology and landscapes. Probably gets old to have to find areas without shiny metal or chalk all over the setting. 

Dave Olsen · · Channeled Scablands · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 10

Time to go back to rosin.

Matt Griffin · · Madison, WI · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 328
Vaughn wrote:

Has anyone ever tried antiperspirant on their hands as a substitute for chalk? Something like this one: Carpe Antiperspirant

I've used Antihydral before, and it seemed to help quite a bit with overly sweaty hands.  It basically felt like my hands sweated the amount that a normal humans hands should.  I still was using chalk, but it at least kept sweat from pouring out of my fingertips mid-summer.  Definitely scared I'm going to hear one of those "Have you or your loved ones used Antihydral..." class action lawsuit commercials 30 years from now though.

tom donnelly · · san diego · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 394
Vaughn wrote:

Has anyone ever tried antiperspirant on their hands as a substitute for chalk? Something like this one: Carpe Antiperspirant

That sounds much like Tite Grip, which has been discussed before.  

"The active ingredient in Carpe is Aluminum Sesquichlorohydrate,"   but  I'm not sure why they add moisturizer though.

Various other links:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20953017/

https://sweathelp.org/treatments-hcp/topical-treatments/astringent-agents.html

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/108732171/chalk-drying-agents#ForumMessage-108733143

https://rockprodigytraining.proboards.com/thread/715/

https://www.drugs.com/cdi/drysol.html

https://eveningsends.com/review-antihydral/

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106235384/antihydral?page=2

one source says -   Antihydral 13% Methenamine is marketed in the USA, Germany, Austria, and Dehydral 8% Methenamine is marketed in Canada 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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