Ok to use non locking carabiners at bolted belay on multi pitch?

In areas where many multi pitch routes have all bolted belays is it ok to use non locking carabiners on the bolts for the anchor sling or cordelette? I’m thinking of Red Rock in particular?

I’m assuming it’s safe because a climber is always at the anchor as opposed to with a top rope anchor. Plus, with gear anchors we don’t use lockers on the pieces for the anchor. I just want to confirm what I’m thinking. Thanks in advance. 

Yes

on two bolt anchors I tend to make the anchor out of two alpine draws with an overhand, so those alpine draws have two carabiners on them anyway so I'll often opposite/oppose them. Typically I throw the opposite one on after my second starts climbing during idle time. 

You can use a non-locking carabiner anywhere you would use a locking carabiner. You COULD belay off of a non-locking carabiner if you wanted to.

The questions to ask are: am I OK with both 1) the likelihood of this carabiner coming unclipped and 2) the consequences of that carabiner coming unclipped.

Obviously belaying has a high likelihood and a high consequence if the carabiner comes unclipped — the entire safety system is compromised. so it would be pretty stupid not to use lockers.

A piece of the anchor (bolt or gear) coming unclipped is a pretty low likelihood (climber should always be there monitoring it) and a medium-high consequence. More of a grey area. and ultimately a personal choice.

Yea. You’re usually putting your weight onto the anchor, so the likelihood of carabiners opening on their own is low

Sure, but to me this begs the question - what are you trying to save/optimize by doing so? Is the trade-off really worth it? To me it sort of depends how close to your physical limits you're really climbing, or how much of a personal testpiece your are getting into. However for my part, I have a hard time figuring out the context in which the few 100 grams saved by not bringing lockers/bringing fewer will make any sort of difference. Knowing that doing so is fine most of the time is good (in case for whatever reason I don't have all the gear I need, forgot the cordelette on the belayer's harness, etc.). Allows you to adapt.

So, my 2 cents would be sure, do so... but what's the point?

I'm more likely to use lockers on a multipitch anchor than a single pitch anchor (in practice I usually use them on both). Catching a hard fall where the leader pulls you up above the anchor can do some funky stuff to a carabiner. 

Unless you see something unusual that will turn or twist the carabiner and move it to where the gate will be forced open.

I would use a locker on the Munter side of a banshee belay.

A second good bolt and biner  provides the redundancy.

I climbed a long time with only 1 locker for my belay plate. Lockers seemed a hassle when trying to do things one handed, so I just doubled up the non lockers when needed.

Now I bring two, the second for a lanyard on my rappel extension and misc other stuff. 

The question was answered in the first reply.  But let's see how many pages we can turn this into.

Marc H wrote:

The question was answered in the first reply.  But let's see how many pages we can turn this into.

It's OK as long as you back it up with a small cam. Which leads to the next question...

Gunkiemike wrote:

It's OK as long as you back it up with a small cam. Which leads to the next question...

You're wrong.  The standard to back up a bolt is a RURP.

Gunkiemike wrote:

It's OK as long as you back it up with a small cam. Which leads to the next question...

.... I nEeD smol CaMz, wiCH oNeS???1! 

Mike Climberson wrote:

Yea. You’re usually putting your weight onto the anchor, so the likelihood of carabiners opening on their own is low

usually, but when you are at a hanging stance and your partner whips you can end up all over the place.  for this reason i like having the lockers.  i think it also helps keep a bit oraganized as well.

If you don't want to carry extra lockers for this purpose just use doubled-opposed regular carabiners. 

SOP for me is non-lockers on the bolts when some sort of sling is being attached, lockers for things clipped to the rigging like belay plaquettes and tie-ins.

Generally speaking, lockers are for situations in which the carabiner can move around and possibly open the gate, or there are external things that could move and hit the carabiner and open the gate. An important special case where lockers are called-for is when clipping one carabiner to another (e.g.some anchors use a power-point carabiner and clip other carabiners to that).  The carabiners on bolt hangers with slings clipped to them rarely meet these conditions and so don't have to be lockers.

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: It depends.

Correct answer: Yur gunna die.

If you use the non locking racking biners on your cams with a cordallete to build trad anchors why would it logically be any different with bolts? 

Nathan Williams wrote:

If you use the non locking racking biners on your cams with a cordallete to build trad anchors why would it logically be any different with bolts? 

With a cordelette the 'biner is attached to flexible slings on each side, rather than a fixed, rigid bolt hanger. I can easily rotate a 'biner in a hanger and cause it to open the gate. Bolt anchors also often have chains or quicklinks on them too, which can leverage a carabiner gate. And finally, with a cordelette anchor, you have 3+ pieces with 'biners vs. 2 with a bolt anchor. More things would have to go wrong with it for a catastrophic failure compared to the bolt anchor. Admittedly, any of these things are pretty unlikely to happen, but you did ask. Also, my lockers are actually lighter than the non-lockers I started climbing with, so it doesn't seem like much of a weight penalty to me to have the extra security of lockers in this situation.  

Edited to add: Sometimes routes with bolt anchors are also the rappel route for parties above you. There's the potential for 4 people at the same 2 bolt anchor, which can add a lot of confusion and clusterfuckage... sometimes resulting in carabiners accidentally/mistakenly being opened or unclipped... I'm guilty of that myself many years ago. 

I like to run it out on easy terrain.

My partner likes to have at least one locker.  :) 

Daniel Kay wrote:

You can use a non-locking carabiner anywhere you would use a locking carabiner. You COULD belay off of a non-locking carabiner if you wanted to.

The questions to ask are: am I OK with both 1) the likelihood of this carabiner coming unclipped and 2) the consequences of that carabiner coming unclipped.

Obviously belaying has a high likelihood and a high consequence if the carabiner comes unclipped — the entire safety system is compromised. so it would be pretty stupid not to use lockers.

A piece of the anchor (bolt or gear) coming unclipped is a pretty low likelihood (climber should always be there monitoring it) and a medium-high consequence. More of a grey area. and ultimately a personal choice.

Show me a documented real life example of carabiners clipped to anchors coming unclipped during a fall?

Not breaking, not bending, but coming unclipped.

I'll be waiting to see because I personally have never heard of this actually happening with real consequence.

Franck Vee wrote:

Sure, but to me this begs the question - what are you trying to save/optimize by doing so? Is the trade-off really worth it? To me it sort of depends how close to your physical limits you're really climbing, or how much of a personal testpiece your are getting into. However for my part, I have a hard time figuring out the context in which the few 100 grams saved by not bringing lockers/bringing fewer will make any sort of difference. Knowing that doing so is fine most of the time is good (in case for whatever reason I don't have all the gear I need, forgot the cordelette on the belayer's harness, etc.). Allows you to adapt.

So, my 2 cents would be sure, do so... but what's the point?

How much time gets wasted when one of the locking gates freeze?

Beginners use way too many lockers and this is partly why they take so long to set up anchors (continually opening and closing them and their mechanisms).

More beginners get in trouble being slow than anything else. Lockers don't make you safer in most cases beginners are using them other than on their belay device.