Choss is Classic

Choss can totally be classic and I think there are a lot of issues with calling something bad without actually trying it. 

Point 1: I haven't been to the gym in a long long while but I don't think there was anything more annoying than meeting someone who seemed stoked about climbing, just to try to get that person to climb outside. That person would deflect on going outside because its just "choss." If you actually like rock climbing maybe going rock climbing should be something you do or at least try it. I think the main reason people call something choss is to stroke their own ego. They call it choss because they think they are too good to be bothered with it. Like if you consider yourself a rock climber maybe if your given a choice between the worst climb in the world and netflix, you should still prefer climbing. If it is actually worth so little effort to climb, why would anyone even expend then energy to call it choss. To summarize, most people calling stuff choss are just stroking their own ego.

Point 2: People love Choss. World Wall, Vantage, Smith, Wild Iris, the red, etc.. All require quite a bit of cleaning, Smith in particular I have pulled/pushed 6 holds off one climb in an attempt (if you read the ice cream thread you would know I am thicc). So when someone implies they are too good to climb at their local crag and go to smith, the real reason they don't climb at their local area has nothing to do with it being chossy. 

Point 3: Everything is choss. Next time your at a climbing area that you don't think as chossy, look around you will probably still see a good amount of tallus. Or if your in Index look in the woods for trees that exploded from trundling. If your in the Washington alpine wander off route for a bit. A hiker literally died in Yosemite from rockfall. A 5.14 crusher died in Squamish on a 5.6 due to rock breaking. 

Point 4: I think when you ask someone what their most meaningful experience was there is almost no correlation with that and the actual rock quality.

Point 5: The eventual responses in this thread calling me a gumby and responding with something like a one word "no." If you disagree it should be pretty easy to write a sentence that actually makes a point. However, I expect a lot of stuff disparaging me/other climbers which will just validate point one.

Edit: Point 6, as discussed earlier everything is choss. If your issue is you hate rock pulling off or dieing I would say that is more of having an issue with safety than with it being chossy. 

A scary choss wrangling experience is an important part of becoming a climber. And I think is one of those experiences that sets "climbers" apart from "people who like to climb" 

Nah everything outside is a choss pile, you’re better off staying in the gym. Way too dangerous out there 

Your gym is choss 

Totally agree...I love Eldo, which has shit falling off of it constantly. My local climbing areas are 1) a former quarry that is total polished shit called Barn Bluff; Taylor's Falls, that has climbs named "Fallen Knight" due to the previous climb falling down; and the north shore, where I have pulled shit off every year I have climbed there. I like the gym because it allow me to stay in good enough shape to climb outside.

Becoming a choss boss is a good feeling. Once you do that, the chossibilities are endless. 

Something something colorado

Is this directed at my calling that wall choss   

Nah you're totally right tho

There are chossy routes that are multi star classics. There are bullet solid routes that I would rather watch netflix than climb on. I guess I'm not a climber

The gym is choss, too.

https://gymclimber.com/friday-feat-downward-dyno-gone-wrong/

Mike Shorts wrote:

The gym is choss, too.

https://gymclimber.com/friday-feat-downward-dyno-gone-wrong/

I have actually broken 5 gym holds the choss never ends! And two the same day! Daniel I don’t even know what you called choss but it doesn’t even matter cause it all goes!

A V wrote:

I think that climbing rickety truly fucked up choss is a rite of passage of sorts

Everything ends up feeling bomber in comparison after “that” 

it's like surfing in the gulf of mexico... they say if you can learn how to surf there, you can surf anything. 

train on choss, and everything else you visit is of equal or better quality.

Another example: Cannon cliff in NH, a state known for its granite, touts some of the northeast’s most classic trad routes. A total choss pile! I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Something something helmets

I don't think you can start a thread with this title unless you've done a lot of climbing in the Canadian Rockies :) 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Choss can totally be classic and I think there are a lot of issues with calling something bad without actually trying it. 

Point 1: I haven't been to the gym in a long long while but I don't think there was anything more annoying than meeting someone who seemed stoked about climbing, just to try to get that person to climb outside. That person would deflect on going outside because its just "choss." If you actually like rock climbing maybe going rock climbing should be something you do or at least try it. I think the main reason people call something choss is to stroke their own ego. They call it choss because they think they are too good to be bothered with it. Like if you consider yourself a rock climber maybe if your given a choice between the worst climb in the world and netflix, you should still prefer climbing. If it is actually worth so little effort to climb, why would anyone even expend then energy to call it choss. To summarize, most people calling stuff choss are just stroking their own ego.

Point 2: People love Choss. World Wall, Vantage, Smith, Wild Iris, the red, etc.. All require quite a bit of cleaning, Smith in particular I have pulled/pushed 6 holds off one climb in an attempt (if you read the ice cream thread you would know I am thicc). So when someone implies they are too good to climb at their local crag and go to smith, the real reason they don't climb at their local area has nothing to do with it being chossy. 

Point 3: Everything is choss. Next time your at a climbing area that you don't think as chossy, look around you will probably still see a good amount of tallus. Or if your in Index look in the woods for trees that exploded from trundling. If your in the Washington alpine wander off route for a bit. A hiker literally died in Yosemite from rockfall. A 5.14 crusher died in Squamish on a 5.6 due to rock breaking. 

Point 4: I think when you ask someone what their most meaningful experience was there is almost no correlation with that and the actual rock quality.

Point 5: The eventual responses in this thread calling me a gumby and responding with something like a one word "no." If you disagree it should be pretty easy to write a sentence that actually makes a point. However, I expect a lot of stuff disparaging me/other climbers which will just validate point one.

Edit: Point 6, as discussed earlier everything is choss. If your issue is you hate rock pulling off or dieing I would say that is more of having an issue with safety than with it being chossy. 

Please stop bolting crappy rock.

Climber 4QualityCommunity wrote:

Please stop bolting crappy rock.

See point 5 the predictable response finally makes an appearance! I walk past my drill everyday might be hard!

Also to that comment, if someone bolts the worst climb ever no one is obligated to climb it so who cares?

Trevor Taylor wrote:

See point 5 the predictable response finally makes an appearance! I walk past my drill everyday might be hard!

Also to that comment, if someone bolts the worst climb ever no one is obligated to climb it so who cares?

Climbing itself is an intrusive endeavor into the outdoors. By bolting chossy bad routes you are increasing human impact unnecessarily. Climbing outdoors is a privilege, not a right.

It would be better service to the community to replace the ageing bolts on decent climbs, do trail work, or clean up trash, rather than bolting more "meh" climbing.

Climber 4QualityCommunity wrote:

Climbing itself is an intrusive endeavor into the outdoors. By bolting chossy bad routes you are increasing human impact unnecessarily. Climbing outdoors is a privilege, not a right.

It would be better service to the community to replace the ageing bolts on decent climbs, do trail work, or clean up trash, rather than bolting more "meh" climbing.

That’s where the interpretation is blurred does rebolting a climb no one does because they will deck regardless better than a new climb? There is a marginal exchange in whether reviving things no one has done is better than creating things people are more interested in. So is rebolting a 3 bolt choss pile better, either way it’s up to interpretation. What if forgotten climbs are actually already in intrusive areas. My only point is that chossyness isn’t a good criteria because you can call anything choss.

Trevor Taylor wrote:

That’s where the interpretation is blurred does rebolting a climb no one does because they will deck regardless better than a new climb? There is a marginal exchange in whether reviving things no one has done is better than creating things people are more interested in. So is rebolting a 3 bolt choss pile better, either way it’s up to interpretation. What if forgotten climbs are actually already in intrusive areas. My only point is that chossyness isn’t a good criteria because you can call anything choss.

Well, there's "choss", which is usually referring to loose or flaky rock, and then there's just plain bad climbing, tweaky moves, big reaches, one move wonder, those sorts of things.  So yes, these things are definable. After you go climb many consensus classic climbs in an area it will be very easy to define what good climbing is versus bad climbing. 

Obviously there is some subjectivism in people's opinions of routes but generally classic climbs, as determined by consensus, tend to have similar attributes "choss" isn't one of them. Bad climbs have their own similar attributes.

In addition people who go out and bolt a bunch of junk get a deserved reputation as a junk bolter. Once that reputation is established climbers tend to avoid those climbs with that name attached to it. 

So please don't bolt "choss". It is a waste of your time and resources, the community's time and resources and is a potential threat to access.

Having climbed most the routes in north bend I can assure you rock quality has almost no correlation with popularity. If you look at 5.13s on world wall you will see a theme, rock broke on someone. Specifically look at rainy day women(large rockfall), culture shock(just look at it), and king of the ruins (probably the most popular eastern Washington 12) all were objectively done on bad rock. If that’s not enough look at the most popular 5.9 in Washington, looking at that climb most wouldn’t even think that wall had worthwhile climbing. 

Additionally I could give you a list of the junk bolters and the good climbing bolters and I assure you the junk bolting climbs are more popular. Index is objectively the best climbing area in Washington but is relatively empty compared to other choss piles of Washington.

As for threats to access, Alan watts put bolts in what is pretty much mud. Took someone to put in a rebar ladder. Ten sleep literally bolting rampage on choss, they were stopped by someone manufacturing holds. I really can’t think of any of the chossiest climb areas being shut down for chossy climbs. The larger threat might honestly be people putting bolt lines into the alpine environments on bomber rock.

Point being everyone thinks their classic were not put on piles of choss because of denial. Also, aside from this thread why would you assume anything I have bolted actually meets your definition of choss or are you trying to gate keep someone you don’t know?

edit: if you go through my comment history I have offered to rebolt lots of stuff but no one wants to join me, so I feel little motivation to go out and rebolt something no one else is into.