Dark machines versus nomic.

School me, which one is better

Looks like you are in the Northeast. I would get the Nomics. The DM's are wonderful when the ice is occasionally friendly/plastic, but I wouldn't say that's the norm around here. 

From a practical perspective, Grivel parts are a PITA in the US. ie there is no Grivel USA the way there is a Petzl USA. It matters if you need new hardware in a pinch. Plus everyone has Nomics and spare parts even in the event that the local shop can't help you. 

Neither one really sucks so I wouldn't lose sleep over it. But I've had both and only kept the Nomics. I might choose differently in a mild Western clime with soft ice. 

I like the X Dreams the most personally. 

Probably plenty of people could make a lightweight tool like the DMs work on hard NE ice, but I'm weak and a mediocre climber. Pretty sure I'm not the only one who didn't love them for that reason though. 

jdejace wrote:

Looks like you are in the Northeast. I would get the Nomics. The DM's are wonderful when the ice is occasionally friendly/plastic, but I wouldn't say that's the norm around here. 

From a practical perspective, Grivel parts are a PITA in the US. ie there is no Grivel USA the way there is a Petzl USA. It matters if you need new hardware in a pinch. Plus everyone has Nomics and spare parts even in the event that the local shop can't help you. 

Neither one really sucks so I wouldn't lose sleep over it. But I've had both and only kept the Nomics. I might choose differently in a mild Western clime with soft ice. 

I like the X Dreams the most personally. 

Probably plenty of people could make a lightweight tool like the DMs work on hard NE ice, but I'm weak and a mediocre climber. Pretty sure I'm not the only one who didn't love them for that reason though. 

that makes sense, plus I think if you strip the nomic down with out the ultralight hammer or pick weights it’s only 10 grams heavier than the dm at the same kind of spec , so similar?
would you say that the dm has a better swing inertia and feel? Does the carbon shaft really matter from a warmth perspective, cause as you know it can Be quite cold in the New England 

Yeah you can strip the Nomics for pure mixed and they'll be pretty light. I don't like ice climbing without the pick weights personally. Same problem as the DM (bouncing off hard ice) but worse, the DM is at least well balanced without weights. For me balance only gets you so far and at some point the ice just sucks and you need more weight and thin picks. 

I never really noticed a difference as far as my hands getting cold in the Nomic handles. If you mean literally the shaft you can always wrap a little tape around the upper Nomic shafts for insulation if you find yourself daggering on snow a lot. 

yea I was referring to the shaft, my quarks currently ice up a lot and get rly cold. Tape might help. 

Tape definitely helps. You can probably find some of this at the hardware store if you want to shop local. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005298APQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_QCF066TPB4SWYNS7VAX0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

I have owned both tools and climbed some of the same routes back to back on them here is a few of my observations 

-The percent of first swing good sticks that i get with nomics is way higher then with dark machines. This was even more exaggerated and on a 0 degree day the DMs often required 3-4 swings to get a secure placement on the same route i was getting good first sticks repeatedly with the nomics. I let multiple other people try my DMs and they all had the same issues 

-the dark machine handle is harder to hang onto and i found my hand pumping out alot faster. Taped and un taped handle

-the nomics felt more secure when hooking.

-my confidence was much higher when climbng with the nomics, even though i had more time climbing in n the dark machines.

After a few days of climbing on both sets it was an easy decision to sell my dark machines and buy nomics.

jdejace wrote:

Looks like you are in the Northeast. I would get the Nomics. The DM's are wonderful when the ice is occasionally friendly/plastic, but I wouldn't say that's the norm around here. 

From a practical perspective, Grivel parts are a PITA in the US. ie there is no Grivel USA the way there is a Petzl USA. It matters if you need new hardware in a pinch. Plus everyone has Nomics and spare parts even in the event that the local shop can't help you. 

Neither one really sucks so I wouldn't lose sleep over it. But I've had both and only kept the Nomics. I might choose differently in a mild Western clime with soft ice. 

I like the X Dreams the most personally. 

Probably plenty of people could make a lightweight tool like the DMs work on hard NE ice, but I'm weak and a mediocre climber. Pretty sure I'm not the only one who didn't love them for that reason though. 

Which picks did you have on your DM's? I ask, because I had the Ice Varios, but recently switched to the Total Ice Vario and it has made a big difference in hard ice. 

To the OP, I personally like the Dark Machine better than the Nomic, but you really aren't going to make a "bad" choice if you're choosing between the two. I like the DM better because I prefer the lighter tool and feel like I fatigue less quickly with it than with the heavier Nomic. 

NateC wrote:

Which picks did you have on your DM's? I ask, because I had the Ice Varios, but recently switched to the Total Ice Vario and it has made a big difference in hard ice. 

To the OP, I personally like the Dark Machine better than the Nomic, but you really aren't going to make a "bad" choice if you're choosing between the two. I like the DM better because I prefer the lighter tool and feel like I fatigue less quickly with it than with the heavier Nomic. 

U  can get the nomics down to ten grams heavier than the dm  

remove the pick weights  and hammer, (dm base spec)  then the nomic is 500 and the dm is 490

also do you find that the dm has a better pick durability than the petzl

I have quarks and after 10 days my picks are needing retiring  

Eliot Hack wrote:

... after 10 days my picks are needing retiring  

What?! 

I have done my best but I have filed off 5 teeth. 

NateC wrote:

Which picks did you have on your DM's? I ask, because I had the Ice Varios, but recently switched to the Total Ice Vario and it has made a big difference in hard ice. 

Yeah in fairness I didn't try them with the Total Ice picks, just the Ice that came with them. I bought the Totals (had to order internationally unsurprisingly, typical #grivelproblems) but ended up giving up on the DM's before mounting them. 

Based on my experience with other tools I am skeptical that a thinner pick alone would make up for the lack of head weight in brittle Northeast ice, especially given the Total is 20g lighter than the Ice (that's like 1 pick weight) BUT you've used them and I haven't :-) 

Maybe I missed out! The DM's were definitely awesome when the ice was good, and I've had shoulder issues so I appreciated the light weight. But X-Dreams are pretty perfect for me on the ice I typically climb so I'm good for now. The Cassins are the first tools I've bought that made me consider selling the ol' reliable gen 2 Nomics. Kicking myself for waiting so long to try them. 

I used the total ice vario and regular ice vario on my dark machines and noticed a little improvement on pure ice but still found the nomics to be much better. I also added the hammer to my DMs with the total ice vario picks to try adding a little weight, this was the  best DM configuration i tried, but i still felt the nomics were easier to get first swing sticks with.

FWIW, I was was interested in the Dark Machines, until I saw how wide and flat the front of lower handle is.  The handle shape was the deciding factor for me.

I replaced my Ergonomics with Nomics because the handle on the Ergonomics was too wide and flat for me.  The edges of the handle dug into my skin, causing pain and cutting off circulation.  It is also harder to control the angle of the pick relative to the ice with a wide and flat handle.  Some people seem to like the additional "bite" that this handle shape provides, but I prefer to have more rounded handles with a large pommel. 

I compared the Dark Machine and Ergonomic handles in a store, and I found the shapes to be very similar.  They both have a wide and flat front, with nearly identical width.  

The big issue with the Nomic is the relatively fragile pommel.  This doesn’t seem to be a deal breaker for most people, but it is definitely something to be aware of.  People have broken the pommel in tether falls and reportedly just from caning.  

P.S. Although I don't own the tool, I think the Reactor has the best in class handle + pommel shape.  Nomic handles and pommels are “good enough” for me, but still are not quite best in class.  I would like to see Petzl eliminate the cutouts and increase the strength of the clip in point on the pommel to at least 2 kN.

Karl Henize wrote:

FWIW, I was was interested in the Dark Machines, until I saw how wide and flat the front of lower handle is.  The handle shape was the deciding factor for me.

I replaced my Ergonomics with Nomics because the handle on the Ergonomics was too wide and flat for me.  The edges of the handle dug into my skin, causing pain and cutting off circulation.  It is also harder to control the angle of the pick relative to the ice with a wide and flat handle.  Some people seem to like the additional "bite" that this handle shape provides, but I prefer to have more rounded handles with a large pommel. 

I compared the Dark Machine and Ergonomic handles in a store, and I found the shapes to be very similar.  They both have a wide and flat front, with nearly identical width.  

The big issue with the Nomic is the relatively fragile pommel.  This doesn’t seem to be a deal breaker for most people, but it is definitely something to be aware of.  People have broken the pommel in tether falls and reportedly just from caning.  

P.S. Although I don't own the tool, I think the Reactor has the best in class handle + pommel shape.  Nomic handles and pommels are “good enough” for me, but still are not quite best in class.  I would like to see Petzl eliminate the cutouts and increase the strength of the clip in point on the pommel to at least 2 kN.

I am currently on a pair of 2nd gen nomics. actually hated the 3rd gen handle, love the 2nd gen handle. But I am dealing with shifting pommel and creaking/shifting head/shaft connection. I doubt it will explode on me, but it is affecting my confidence on locking off on steep ice

The lower handle (pinky support) on Nomics was a deciding factor for me. It is nicely curved and ergonomic.

jdejace wrote:

Yeah in fairness I didn't try them with the Total Ice picks, just the Ice that came with them. I bought the Totals (had to order internationally unsurprisingly, typical #grivelproblems) but ended up giving up on the DM's before mounting them. 

lemme know if you still have those total picks and want to sell them, I have some tech machine carbons and have been thinking about trying the total ice picks. 

What's cooking there? Trango weights? Got a pic of what you drilled?

How does it climb? 

Dr Worm wrote:

ooo thats intriguing

Yes, trango weights and I think 5/32 and 7/32 holes? I did use a hand drill and cobalt bits, kept it cool. Haven't swung into ice yet, but I think for cold it will be good. Noticeable difference. Not really needed but something to play with. Would prefer them on the hot forged picks, but I'm not much of a machinist and those have all the bumpy words.