Petzl Laser Speed Light problem

This warm ice binding issue is not caused by the use of steel/aluminum, or how well the parts fit together. The cause is the cutting efficiency, combined with the length of the teeth. creating an ice plug at the tip. This plug is still attached to the main body of ice and once it is tall enough to block the cut debris from getting into the screw to escape, the screw binds up. When tooth design was less efficient and tooth depth was below .350 inches (BD Express), it wasn't an issue as the plug did not form or broke off more easily due to the shorter teeth and rougher cutting. Once cutting improved and tooth depth exceeded this (currently over .400), the issue started when the ice was more plastic. A steel screw will do the same thing with the same tooth design and depth. The 2 ways to deal with the issue we know of are: cut with 3 teeth instead of 4 to create larger chips so the plug doesn't form (new Petzl and Blue Ice screws), or keep the tooth depth around .360 inches or less (E-climb).

Bill Belcourt wrote:

The correct answer....

Well Fu@$ing  A.   I like how that answer both makes sense and comports with my experience (why my older BD steels didn’t have the issue in warm ice, but suck ass well below zero)

Thanks Bill

Bill Belcourt wrote:

This warm ice binding issue is not caused by the use of steel/aluminum, or how well the parts fit together. The cause is the cutting efficiency, combined with the length of the teeth. creating an ice plug at the tip. This plug is still attached to the main body of ice and once it is tall enough to block the cut debris from getting into the screw to escape, the screw binds up. When tooth design was less efficient and tooth depth was below .350 inches (BD Express), it wasn't an issue as the plug did not form or broke off more easily due to the shorter teeth and rougher cutting. Once cutting improved and tooth depth exceeded this (currently over .400), the issue started when the ice was more plastic. A steel screw will do the same thing with the same tooth design and depth. The 2 ways to deal with the issue we know of are: cut with 3 teeth instead of 4 to create larger chips so the plug doesn't form (new Petzl and Blue Ice screws), or keep the tooth depth around .360 inches or less (E-climb).

Awesome information, and definitely cleared that up.
And while a bit off topic, can you share any details on the Blue Ice screws you mentioned? Very curious.......thanks.

Hey Tim,

I don't really want to "sales pitch" the Blue Ice screw to you all here as I think it's kinda bad style for manufacturers to pitch their wares on the public forums. We'll have the details up on our website in the next couple weeks and I'll be happy to discuss the merits of our design and our choices once people get a chance to use these.

Best,

Bill

Bill Belcourt wrote:

I don't really want to "sales pitch" the Blue Ice screw 

DO IT !!! 

teaser photo?? 

Looks like the Blue Ice steel caps are a bit longer than Petzl's (more like BD). Maybe more sharpening/rehab potential for the long term so long as you're comfortable with 1-2 less threads. 3 teeth as Bill mentioned.

https://9cclimbing.com/collections/blue-ice-ice-screws/products/aero-lite

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned - and I am not an engineer - but the teeth on my Petzl Laser Speed stubby are clearly thinner than the ones on my Laser Speed Lights. Maybe with a mind to increase durability/lifespan on the aluminum ones. Wondering if some other variables like this may contribute to impressions of steel ones going in more easily.

Tested John Goodlander’s post about the 21cm’s binding after about 10 cm ...don’t usually use 21s, but placed one today at 23 F and sure enough, got it about half-way in and it was seized up solid.  No amount of back-out/jiggering/slapping or restarting was gonna help.  Since it was single pitch cragging, my v-thread/screw tool to push the plug out was on the ground.  Had to just abandon it sticking halfway out and placed a 13 nearby and it went in fine with no problem.   Don’t think I’ll bother racking a 21 unless it’s very cold, or I know I need a v-thread and I have my tool.  

Bill Belcourt wrote:

Hey Tim,

I don't really want to "sales pitch" the Blue Ice screw to you all here as I think it's kinda bad style for manufacturers to pitch their wares on the public forums. We'll have the details up on our website in the next couple weeks and I'll be happy to discuss the merits of our design and our choices once people get a chance to use these.

Best,

Bill

No problem, I understand that. I will be keen on finding out more about the new screws and using one at some point.
Appreciate it. 

Hi, are the problems occurring with the newer 3 tooth screws as well, or is this feedback about older version? I guess I was just wondering if the tri-tooth change was in anyway thought to be a fix by petzl - not that they seem to accept the issue in the first place or overly explain the move to 3 teeth. 

Apologies, i didn't see the second page of discussion. I see Bill has answered this.

I don't know why petzl don't make more of this. I just saw one video comment about 3 teeth mashing up the core more. It didn't explain why that was a good idea. So thanks Bill

Mark Pilate wrote:

Tested John Goodlander’s post about the 21cm’s binding after about 10 cm ...don’t usually use 21s, but placed one today at 23 F and sure enough, got it about half-way in and it was seized up solid.  No amount of back-out/jiggering/slapping or restarting was gonna help.  Since it was single pitch cragging, my v-thread/screw tool to push the plug out was on the ground.  Had to just abandon it sticking halfway out and placed a 13 nearby and it went in fine with no problem.   Don’t think I’ll bother racking a 21 unless it’s very cold, or I know I need a v-thread and I have my tool.  

Interesting. I tested the 21 cm again the other day around 30F and had no issues at all. That having been said the ice seemed cold / dry relative to the temperature. Hopefully the issue is limited to conditions with lower temperatures and relatively warmer / wetter ice. 

Since this seems a good thread for idle untested speculation, and may generate a true expert response, I’m gonna throw out other factors that may be at play here....tube wall thickness, inner diameter, and “relief” hole at the base of teeth

The more Plastic the ice, the greater the hassle regardless, but a larger tube diameter (Aluminum) means a thicker core plug still attached to the main ice, and less likely to break away (would potentially remain in place past tooth depth)

Seems that a deeper cut, larger “relief” at the base of the teeth would help this, and allow shavings more space to evacuate into the tube.  

A few more facts to throw out there.
Clearance angle refers to the trailing edge of the tooth. Left of the tip as in the photo above.
Rake angle refers to the leading edge of the tooth. Right of the tip.
ALL screws have a pitch of 4 threads per inch which equates to about a 6° helix angle.

The original BD Turbo. The tooth depth was about 7mm, clearance angle of 25° and I think the rake angle was around 8°.

Next gen screws had a tooth depth of 9mm, clearance angle of 35° and a rake of 10°.

Latest generation of screws have a depth of 10mm, still have a clearance angle of 35° and rake of 10°

Related question to how to keep the screw from sticking in the ice... how do you keep ice from sticking in the screw? I've run into the problem the past couple times I've gone out (between -10 and 10 degrees F; petzl lasers and laser lights): I'll clean a screw and not be able to place it again because it's chock full of ice that I can't knock out or push through. My preliminary search of the MP forums says the best way is to put it in my partner's jacket or pants, but they've gotten wise to that trick.

Andy Eiter wrote:

Related question to how to keep the screw from sticking in the ice... how do you keep ice from sticking in the screw? I've run into the problem the past couple times I've gone out (between -10 and 10 degrees F; petzl lasers and laser lights): I'll clean a screw and not be able to place it again because it's chock full of ice that I can't knock out or push through. My preliminary search of the MP forums says the best way is to put it in my partner's jacket or pants, but they've gotten wise to that trick.

Bang the shit out of it as soon as you clean it -- hangar down, don't hit the threads/tip or your leader's gonna be real sulky when you arrive at the belay haha.

You can also hold it in your bare hand to warm it up -- warmth will very quickly transfer from your hand to the body of the screw, usually melting the snow cone inside enough to slide out within about 30-60 seconds. Of course, this makes your hand pretty cold. Armpits work too, not quite as well.

If it's just stuck a little bit, you can sometimes tap the core out using your ice pick. If it's more stuck, you may need to use the v-thread tool as the poster above mentioned.

https://northeastalpinestart.com/category/tech-tips/ 

I bought a couple of the BD Ultralights and used them alongside my Laser Speeds and my partner's new Kailas screws last week. As was reported upthread, the Kailas didn't have the sticking issue that plagued the BD placements. Are they worth the extra money? Probably not if those Aero Lites turn out to be as good as they look. 

BTW: That Petzl multi-hook tool is the best! I even carry it on pure rock routes instead of a knife.

Not a factor for the soft ice binding issue, but after using the SWIX in the bore, the bore cleans  quicker and slicker than frozen snot.  Plus, the wax coating keeps your lips and tongue from sticking when you lick them to get ‘em started ;)

Daniel Kay wrote:

Bang the shit out of it as soon as you clean it -- hangar down, don't hit the threads/tip or your leader's gonna be real sulky when you arrive at the belay haha.

You can also hold it in your bare hand to warm it up -- warmth will very quickly transfer from your hand to the body of the screw, usually melting the snow cone inside enough to slide out within about 30-60 seconds. Of course, this makes your hand pretty cold. Armpits work too, not quite as well.

If it's just stuck a little bit, you can sometimes tap the core out using your ice pick. If it's more stuck, you may need to use the v-thread tool as the poster above mentioned.

You can also use the tail of the tie-in knot to push it out. Push it in from the back end, not the teeth end.