Screw in bolts?

I’m unfamiliar with these, and haven’t been able to find any info on MP — 

I was recently told that these are stronger than mechanical or glue-ins in limestone, but have not seen or heard about any specific data to back this up. They are plated steel and being used by folks in a corrosive environment with the idea that they are easily replaced (“just unscrew old one and screw in new one”) when they start to corrode.

Are these an actual thing that are being used now?

Any and all experiences, data, conversation, debate, etc. are welcome! Educate me please because I’m skeptical!

I’m not even sure who the manufacturer is or where these are being acquired.

They work for sure. The claim that they are stronger than glue-ins seems misguided or downright wrong. How many times the same hole can be re-used is unknown to me.

Some people swear by them, most people suspect they are not a long term solution esp on popular routes.

YMMV. I’m never a fan of a solution that is intentionally myopic though. While maybe it is easy to go back and replace them when rusted, you still have to go do it. They come in SS, so it seems prundent to at least spring for those if this is the direction you are going. 

Matt Carroll wrote:

They work for sure. The claim that they are stronger than glue-ins seems misguided or downright wrong. How many times the same hole can be re-used is unknown to me.

Some people swear by them, most people suspect they are not a long term solution esp on popular routes.

YMMV. I’m never a fan of a solution that is intentionally myopic though. While maybe it is easy to go back and replace them when rusted, you still have to go do it. They come in SS, so it seems prundent to at least spring for those if this is the direction you are going. 

Thanks Matt. Who manufactures these?

cashmab wrote:

Thanks Matt. Who manufactures these?

https://www.strongtie.com/mechanicalanchors_mechanicalanchoringproducts/thd_anchor/p/titen-hd 

The “how to go highline / bolt busters” guys use them for testing hangers. I believe somewhere here in the forums it’s been said that the Simpson Titen HD is the only concrete screw type anchor that’s strong enough, and other brands aren’t recommended. I personally haven’t used any of them

They are definitely strong. These are the bolts that the bolt busters/how not to highline guys use to break hangers.

Long term... who knows. I believe that even on the SS variants the first few threads are hard carbon steel to assist in cutting threads into the concrete (rock for our use cases) someone with a lot better chemical knowledge than me will have to make the call on whether that is acceptable mixed metal or not.

cashmab wrote:

I’m unfamiliar with these, and haven’t been able to find any info on MP — 

I was recently told that these are stronger than mechanical or glue-ins in limestone, but have not seen or heard about any specific data to back this up. They are plated steel and being used by folks in a corrosive environment with the idea that they are easily replaced (“just unscrew old one and screw in new one”) when they start to corrode.

I feel like I’m being Punk’d. Are these an actual thing that are being used now?

Any and all experiences, data, conversation, debate, etc. are welcome! Educate me please because I’m highly skeptical!

I’m not even sure who the manufacturer is or where these are being acquired.

Maybe you could ask the fellow who gave you permission to use his photo? 

Seriously though, there are posts about this screw here on MP. Don't place them if you are highly skeptical. The manufacturer doesn't care about the tiny climbers market.

I was recently told that these are stronger than mechanical or glue-ins in limestone, 

They are not stronger. They are sketchy bolts used by a few people in certain rock types, and they are overly promoted by one strong supporter.

It reminds me a lot of John Bachar promoting Taper bolts as the strongest possible bolt - yes they were great in shear strength in certain circumstances assuming you got the torque just right...but nowhere near as strong as a 3/8" 5-piece was in all the other circumstances and if people didn't get the torque just right.

There is a reason why Europeans rely on glue-ins in limestone - decades of experience. Euro limestone is generally wetter, and in dry climates in the Western U.S., mechanical bolts can be just fine - but why mess around with funky bolts like this when 5-piece have a 40 year track record of holding climbing whips in all rock types, and stainless wedge/stud bolts have a long track record in good rock in both the U.S. and Europe?

My understanding is that in this case the bolts in the OP (in photo above) are Tapcons, not Simpsons. 

cashmab wrote:

My understanding is that in this case the bolts in the OP (in photo above) are Tapcons, not Simpsons. 

Aren't all tapcon screws and anchors blue? It might not be Simpson but don't think it's tapcon. Hilti, Dewalt, redhead all make screw anchors. 

They are pretty damn strong.  In many cases in break testing the hanger breaks before the bolt pulls out, that’s not always the case when testing mechanical wedge or 5 piece bolts where the bolt will bend and ooze out out of the hole during pull tests.

I’m still sticking with stainless mechanical however. 

There's literally an entire thread or two on these on Mtn Project.  This more recent one has several testing studies cited along with several of us commenting on their negatives as well as positives.  In SS they're semi cost prohibitive at $4+ each.  At that point your may as well use glue ins for the majority of needs.  They're extremely finicky in harder rock (granite and limestone) where other options such as quality SS wedges are perfectly fine AND cheaper.  Several here, including myself, have found limited use with them for temporary anchors.  I use the 1/4" ones as temp bolts as they're easy to install and then hide once done.  There are niche uses that the'd probably be a good choice but I have doubts about PS and people "replacing them" as needed.  Assuming others will come along and help with maintenance is asking for problems.  Quality SS products IN MOST CASES.  

mattm wrote:

There's literally an entire thread or two on these on Mtn Project.  This more recent one has several testing studies cited along with several of us commenting on their negatives as well as positives.  In SS they're semi cost prohibitive at $4+ each.  At that point your may as well use glue ins for the majority of needs.  They're extremely finicky in harder rock (granite and limestone) where other options such as quality SS wedges are perfectly fine AND cheaper.  Several here, including myself, have found limited use with them for temporary anchors.  I use the 1/4" ones as temp bolts as they're easy to install and then hide once done.  There are niche uses that the'd probably be a good choice but I have doubts about PS and people "replacing them" as needed.  Assuming others will come along and help with maintenance is asking for problems.  Quality SS products IN MOST CASES.  

  

^^^This.

Despite strong promotion by some they simply have no real track record in a climbing application over decades. Certainly not enough to go "all in" on as being superior to existing (and cheaper) solutions like SS wedges. Seriously, it takes 10 or 20 years before we really know if something works for us. I'm sure PS wedge bolts also seemed like the cat's ass when first placed, it was only over time that the fundamental error of their use was apparent to all and they are now considered downright unethical to use. We have but a few years experience (at most) with these new bolts....

When the PS ones inevitably rust and their teeth are gone the pull out strength will be zero...Just how fast we reach this point is anyone's guess as we have no data/experience over time. If the hole can be re-used afterwards by simply screwing in another is anyone's guess because again we have no experience replacing rusted screw in type bolts. We also do not know how they perform when routinely/daily whipped on as can be the case on popular sport routes as compared to 5-piece, glue-ins or wedge type anchors which are performing well over time.

They certainly are strong (when new) and awesome for temporary anchors for properly positioning oneself safely for the job at hand. I do and will continue to use them for this narrow application of allowing temporary access and then removing them... It simply is hard to personally take the initiative to "re-invent the wheel" with another new type of bolt when other solutions are performing extremely well and are very economical. I'll let someone else fix what isn't broken and will happily adopt whatever works best if time tells the tale.

I emailed  back and forth with the gung ho promotor of them.   He seems to think that reuseing the same hole is fine with them. My experience in construction which granted is concrete and not stone is that the hole can strip out pretty easily if you use it more than once. I would not want to take that chance in a life support situation. I would also not want to use the hole twice in a life support role if the manufactures directions said not to do so.  

Used the 3/8"x4" PS Titen for temporary anchors. I am super happy with them for  that application. 

They work great for testing hangers. The only hangers we tested that is stronger is the welded rod hanger from Bolt Products. Head popped off the bolts at 40 kn in tension and 50 kn in shear. So the Titens are much stronger than anything else we tested that goes in a 3/8" hole. Including glue ins. 

Ditto on everything Mattm says. I have had issues installing them in hard rock. Annoying to wreck several $4 SS bolts on one hole. The one route I installed 30 or so on has yet to develop any spinners after two winters under snow and two summer in full sun. Can't say the say the same for the 3/8" 5 piece bolts on the same wall. I believe I have had to tighten each one of the Powers bolts at least once. 

My two cents. 

Bobby Hutton wrote:

Used the 3/8"x4" PS Titen for temporary anchors. I am super happy with them for  that application. 

They work great for testing hangers. The only hangers we tested that is stronger is the welded rod hanger from Bolt Products. Head popped off the bolts at 40 kn in tension and 50 kn in shear. So the Titens are much stronger than anything else we tested that goes in a 3/8" hole. Including glue ins. 

Ditto on everything Mattm says. I have had issues installing them in hard rock. Annoying to wreck several $4 SS bolts on one hole. The one route I installed 30 or so on has yet to develop any spinners after two winters under snow and two summer in full sun. Can't say the say the same for the 3/8" 5 piece bolts on the same wall. I believe I have had to tighten each one of the Powers bolts at least once. 

My two cents. 

My concern would be after a few torqueing falls on them to loosen them up....I would think that would occur pretty easily.

Do they make a 5/16" by 3"? A couple 2 or 3 of those would likely be bomber for a positioning anchor. if a proper hanger could be found.

The head flanges are big. 3/8 ones work with 1/2 inch hanger holes. So 5/16 would work with 3/8 harger. If anyone made them. Haven't seen any. Would be a great temporary bolt if they did.

Strangely 3/8 hangers from Fixe fit fine yet same size Climb Tech hangers are too small. 

Adam Wood wrote:

Strangely 3/8 hangers from Fixe fit fine yet same size Climb Tech hangers are too small. 

Fixe = 10mm  CT probably 3/8 so 0.5mm less.  Ive seen the same.  Euro hangers work, US not so much.  YMMV

hillbilly hijinks wrote:

My concern would be after a few torqueing falls on them to loosen them up....I would think that would occur pretty easily.

Do they make a 5/16" by 3"? A couple 2 or 3 of those would likely be bomber for a positioning anchor. if a proper hanger could be found.

Fischer make small ones, 8mm x 55mm in steel and 8mm x 60mm in stainless.

As temporary anchors I think the 1/4” are better than the 3/8” for 2 reasons.

If you decide that any of your temporary bolts are in the correct position you can drill out the 1/4” hole to 3/8”, which removes all the rock that has been compromised by the thread cutting action of the Titans, and re-use the hole.  They fit the more common 3/8” hangers. And they are smaller holes to patch.