School me on Canyoneering rigging

I have noticed some fatalities lately in canyoneering, some are just pure bad luck accidents but others have been mistakes made rigging rappels.   I have some experience in canyoneering but have always rigged rappels the same as I would rapping off a multi pitch route and have never had any issues.   I look at some of the set ups some  canyoneers use and they seem overly complicated which seems it could lead to more mistakes being made when cold and tired.   I stopped going canyoneering with friends who started using techniques like the fiddle stick.  Ill stick to safer pursuits like climbing.

Do they need to be that complex or are they just trying to reinvent the wheel?

Were all of the fataliaties in cases where they were "ghosting" the canyon? It would seem that rigging as for multipitch, and leaving gear, could be made roughly as safe as multipitch rapping, whereas attempting to leave no gear behind ratchets up the danger level.

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Were all of the fataliaties in cases where they were "ghosting" the canyon? It would seem that rigging as for multipitch, and leaving gear, could be made roughly as safe as multipitch rapping, whereas attempting to leave no gear behind ratchets up the danger level.

No, most seem to be screwing up the rigging on a blocked rappel.   Some are from ghosting and anchor fails.  I have always just double rope rappelled while cayoneering and have never had an issue and seems like the simpler method to reduce user error over setting up a system like this.  There are much less complicated ways to set up a block if you must rap on a single line, this I’m sure is second nature to many but seems a bit overly complicate.

I'll just talk about the fiddle stick

Pros:

• drastically less damage to the canyon while pulling ropes.  Have you seen the grooves made by people rappelling with the typically climber setup?
• single strand allows devices like the critr that can adjust friction on the fly while hanging (useful for very long rappels).
• Much easier to pull.  Just pop it and you're done
• You can carry a super thin pull cord.  This saves space in your pack as you squeeze through tight slots.  I've seen 300' of 3mm Amsteel packed down smaller than a nalgene. 
• Allows you to use throw bags to position your rappel rope exactly where you want it. 
• Faster to rig/store.  Don't have to thread to the middle.  You can keep most of the rope in the bag and just restack what you use.  
• ghosting

Cons:

• It's different than climbing rappels.
• You can rappel off the short tail accidently.  I don't see this as much different than missing a strand on a two strand rappel.  
• the stick could get stuck if you aren't mindful of the orientation during setup or positioning during the pull

In my experience most popular "trade route" canyons have either bolted anchors (like most in Zion) or solid, obvious natural anchors like trees or solid boulders, so anchors themselves are not the issue. Not sure why canyoneers prefer to equalize bolts with webbing instead of chains though - I always assumed it had something to do with chains making the anchor or the rock more susceptible to damage during a flash flood. 

Single-strand rappelling is also popular for canyoneering, and I understand that's been the source of quite a few accidents. I can see the argument there in terms of efficiency, rope management etc as well as the fact that being able to control friction mid-rappel is much easier when using single strand. Sometimes it comes down to logistics - if you want to do a route with a single 80m rap, are you really going to bring two 80m full-size ropes? Many people would only even own one long-ass rope so doing single-strand allows you to use either a skimpy pull cord or 2 lightweight ropes tied together for the pull. 

Some canyons also have rappels into cold swimming water, and in that scenario it's really nice to just be able to intentionally rap off the end and start swimming (which you made sure was in the water before going down) rather than have to mess around with disconnecting from the rope while treading water. I know someone who accidentally lost an ATC this way as well. 

As for fiddlesticks etc that's the domain of "ghosting" which definitely falls into advanced canyoneering - at the end of the day it's quite similar to the many bolting discussions you can find on MP though - many people are in favor of not permanently or even temporarily altering the natural surrounding, and also leaving it "pristine" for the next group. In my view it's a similar argument that people make about installing / not installing fixed "convenience" anchors on multi-pitch trad climbs when natural anchors are available, or about whether it's appropriate to add a bolt to a dangerously runout section of a route. Ghosters are choosing to do the route in a more pure style but possibly taking on some additional risk due to the complexity and more things that could go wrong. 

For canyons I always rappel on a single line using this system https://youtu.be/4o1c6wGYLBo?t=72 work perfectly (at least for me...)

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

No, most seem to be screwing up the rigging on a blocked rappel.   Some are from ghosting and anchor fails.  I have always just double rope rappelled while cayoneering and have never had an issue and seems like the simpler method to reduce user error over setting up a system like this.  There are much less complicated ways to set up a block if you must rap on a single line, this I’m sure is second nature to many but seems a bit overly complicate.

This system isn’t just a complicated block. It’s rigging for contingency. Which is exactly as it sounds. Can be very helpful but needs to be rigged prior to having a stuck/stranded/injured person on the line.

Canyon anchors are just like anything else in climbing. If you familiarize yourself with them, practice them often, and feel comfortable with all said practices then odds are you’re in good shape. If you’re not...then ygd. 

Almost everything canyoneers do for complicated rigging (ghosting techniques notwithstanding) can be accomplished via a Munter Mule Overhand combo and a single locking carabiner. You don't need to do wack shit like what people do with rap devices on the anchor. 

There are a lot of accidents because canyoneering has a lower skill entry threshold than climbing, but similar consequences. 

Fiddle sticks are great in canyons, provided you know their limitations. Same as sand traps, wanchors, pot shots, happy hookers, etc. Anecdotally, I've never heard of a fiddlestick failing, only people getting the pull cord or the stick itself stuck.

Canyoneering folks are weird. I wish there was more to say but there's not. You know the type, weirdos.

EJN wrote:

Almost everything canyoneers do for complicated rigging (ghosting techniques notwithstanding) can be accomplished via a Munter Mule Overhand combo and a single locking carabiner. You don't need to do wack shit like what people do with rap devices on the anchor. 

There are a lot of accidents because canyoneering has a lower skill entry threshold than climbing, but similar consequences. 

Fiddle sticks are great in canyons, provided you know their limitations. Same as sand traps, wanchors, pot shots, happy hookers, etc. Anecdotally, I've never heard of a fiddlestick failing, only people getting the pull cord or the stick itself stuck.

Hmm, not following. I get what you're saying for single strand rappels for the non-leader (who goes last in canyons). But I'm not sure how all that macrame ghosting can be achieved with an MMO. I appreciate "they" are about something different, but when every (some?) rap station is publicly accessible, don't we need to call ghosting a superior ethic? Instead of just "weird?"

Can someone explain to a noob what anchors are like when not ghosting? Are you relegated to bolted anchors, tat or leaving something behind like climbing would be? Would using bolts not be considered ghosting because something is left there, even if it wasn't you?

T Lego wrote:

Can someone explain to a noob what anchors are like when not ghosting? Are you relegated to bolted anchors, tat or leaving something behind like climbing would be? Would using bolts not be considered ghosting because something is left there, even if it wasn't you?

Yea, when not ghosting anchors are just like climbing. Slung boulders, trees, bushes... with your last question it’s kind of getting into semantics I think. Ghosting goes further than just whether you leave an anchor or not. If you use a fiddle stick, but somehow leave behind rope grooves...you’re not ghosting.

Or if you use a fiddle, don’t rope groove anything, BUT you take a shit in the middle of the canyon...not ghosting... 

Dj3 wrote:

Bomber

Don't forget the ever sketch meat anchor:

Austin P wrote:

This system isn’t just a complicated block. It’s rigging for contingency. Which is exactly as it sounds. Can be very helpful but needs to be rigged prior to having a stuck/stranded/injured person on the line.

I guess one of my big peeves about canyoneering is that they seem to make a big deal out of rapping. How often do people get "stranded" on rappel? I know cannoneers don't like friction hitches, so what happens, they death grip the rope and won't let go? Forget how their hands work? Or is this all for guiding total idiots? Because from my minimal reading, it looks like experienced people like their cluster-rappels too.

I realize there are some complexities in wet canyons that I don't have experience with as a climber, but I would think this would be all the more reason to keep things simple. 

JonasMR wrote:

Hmm, not following. I get what you're saying for single strand rappels for the non-leader (who goes last in canyons). But I'm not sure how all that macrame ghosting can be achieved with an MMO. I appreciate "they" are about something different, but when every (some?) rap station is publicly accessible, don't we need to call ghosting a superior ethic? Instead of just "weird?"

I was referring to the various contingencies/blocks I've seen with rappel device, like this, that can be easily replaced with MMOs. Apologies for the confusion.

Ghosting is a better ethic. I would say that ghosting turns canyoneering into a challenging and interesting adventure sport/activity, rather than trade canyons which feel like hiking with the occasional rappel. 

J C wrote:

I guess one of my big peeves about canyoneering is that they seem to make a big deal out of rapping. How often do people get "stranded" on rappel? I know cannoneers don't like friction hitches, so what happens, they death grip the rope and won't let go? Forget how their hands work? Or is this all for guiding total idiots? Because from my minimal reading, it looks like experienced people like their cluster-rappels too.

I realize there are some complexities in wet canyons that I don't have experience with as a climber, but I would think this would be all the more reason to keep things simple. 

Your peeve with canyoneering is almost the entirety of what canyoneering is...I got into canyons after years and years of climbing and was very hesitant at first. I thought “you’re going to take my absolute least favorite part of climbing (rapping) and make an activity that revolves around it...no thanks” 

Most of the people I know are pretty adamant about the first person down using some sort of friction hitch backup. A lot of less experienced canyoneers will use a friction backup, but often use a non-releasable hitch (three wrap prusik, autoblock, etc) ABOVE their rappel device. And we all know that ends with being locked off on the rope pretty bad. In my experience performing rescues, all of the people who do this also lack the self-rescue skills to get themselves out of the jam.

Now I understand that the same person who can’t rescue themselves off the rope probably shouldn’t be doing some sort of complicated rigging up top. But I also believe that this sort of rigging has a definite place in canyoneering. 

J C wrote:

I guess one of my big peeves about canyoneering is that they seem to make a big deal out of rapping. How often do people get "stranded" on rappel? I know cannoneers don't like friction hitches, so what happens, they death grip the rope and won't let go? Forget how their hands work? Or is this all for guiding total idiots? Because from my minimal reading, it looks like experienced people like their cluster-rappels too.

I realize there are some complexities in wet canyons that I don't have experience with as a climber, but I would think this would be all the more reason to keep things simple. 

The friction hitch thing mostly comes from class C canyons, or running water canyons. Friction hitches can be a hazard in swift water environments, and they're a pain to take off when floating/swimming.

J C wrote:

I guess one of my big peeves about canyoneering is that they seem to make a big deal out of rapping. How often do people get "stranded" on rappel? I know cannoneers don't like friction hitches, so what happens, they death grip the rope and won't let go? Forget how their hands work? Or is this all for guiding total idiots? Because from my minimal reading, it looks like experienced people like their cluster-rappels too.

I realize there are some complexities in wet canyons that I don't have experience with as a climber, but I would think this would be all the more reason to keep things simple. 

A couple things to note.  First, canyoneering can have HUGE rappels (for example, you need a 500 foot rope to do Upper Yosemite Falls, and 300 foot rappels are not a rarity).  Sometimes people will run a canyon and not have the correct length of rope to do so (sometimes because they do not do their research, sometimes because a rope gets stuck and has to get cut half way through the canyon).  So that's the main issue when in a dry canyon. 

When you get into a wet canyon, you now have the danger of drowning. So if you use a friction hitch and can't get it unstuck while in a Class C waterfall, you could drown because of it.  Even if you do not use one, if you have too much rope out and get to the bottom in the pool of water, you could get tangled in that rope and drown.  So the safest way to do rappel down a canyon with moving water, would be to only give out the amount of rope specifically needed, then the first person down will use a whistle to let the person up top to continue lowering them incase the rope wasn't set all the way to the water. The type of anchor that you were looking at would be a solution for that situation, but specifically needs to be done before the rappel, not after someone gets stuck. 

EJN wrote:

Almost everything canyoneers do for complicated rigging (ghosting techniques notwithstanding) can be accomplished via a Munter Mule Overhand combo and a single locking carabiner. You don't need to do wack shit like what people do with rap devices on the anchor. 

There are a lot of accidents because canyoneering has a lower skill entry threshold than climbing, but similar consequences. 

Fiddle sticks are great in canyons, provided you know their limitations. Same as sand traps, wanchors, pot shots, happy hookers, etc. Anecdotally, I've never heard of a fiddlestick failing, only people getting the pull cord or the stick itself stuck.

How would you recover the rope w an mmo? What makes a figure 8 block whack? It takes 2 seconds to make and is releasble under load and reliable. As long as the pull is straightforward I prefer them to a biner block.