The C3 Hype

000 C3’s getting posted for $150, any grey/purple/green getting snatched up in 5min. What’s with the hype?

I feel like alot of people we’re understanding when they were phased out of the BD range, but now, all of a sudden they’re joining the black totem/pink tricam hype train.

Did everyone start aiding thin seams? Did aliens get worse? Are black totems dead?

C3s seem to be the best of the bunch for small, finicky placements. And on top of it, and possibly more importantly, they are no longer being made. Decreased supply leads to increased demand

Black totems are equiv to the Green C3s. For anything thinner than that C3s have the narrowest head width compared to the black and purple aliens. 

Fail Falling wrote:

Black totems are equiv to the Green C3s. For anything thinner than that C3s have the narrowest head width compared to the black and purple aliens. 

Don’t the small Z4’s have a similar headwidth and come in a smaller size?

Charles DuPont wrote:

Don’t the small Z4’s have a similar headwidth and come in a smaller size?

In my experience, not really. Z4s don't really fit in as many places, and I feel the jury is still out on whether the plastic accordion on the stem holds up long term. Also, part of the beauty of C3s is the stiffness, for ease of placement and cleaning in tight spots, which the Z4s just don't replicate.

Charles DuPont wrote:

Don’t the small Z4’s have a similar headwidth and come in a smaller size?

The Z4s are crap for aid. And sizes that small are crap for freeclimbing. 

Also the design of the C3 is such that a fall causes the stem to twist so it’s not a straight, leveraged pull out. Makes them a bit more secure at a small size 

Matt Kelly wrote:

Decreased supply leads to increased demand

Quantity demanded is equal to quantity supplied, just at a higher equilibrium price. So decreased supply leads to decreased demand.

Fail Falling wrote:

Black totems are equiv to the Green C3s. For anything thinner than that C3s have the narrowest head width compared to the black and purple aliens. 

The slowly widening gap between the cabinets of my kitchen suggests that a red c3 is the equivalent size of the black totem lol.

Also, they don't sell anywhere near 150 each. Most has been like 90+ shipping. That guy just smoked a little too much before getting on here. 

It just seems to me that the demand for them far outweighs the amount of finnicky, C3 only type placements that people are encountering.

If Andy Kirkpatrick only carries them on harder climbs as a speciality tool, its hard for me to imagine that so many people are encountering those placements regularly enough to drive up the demand to where it is now.

I don't get this either. 

I've always kinda liked the green and purple for yosemite free climbing but more as doubles for weird placements and definitely not as my primary small cam. While they were still made, most people I climbed with seemed to hate them.

They're also super problematic in my experience, especially when people aren't used to them. Three different partners have blown my purple and one blew both the purple and the green in a fall with consequences. User error for sure but this isn't true for any other cams on my rack. 

Plus if you pull on the trigger too hard cleaning them you break it in a way that is difficult to repair.

Fail Falling wrote:

The Z4s are crap for aid. And sizes that small are crap for freeclimbing. 

I wouldn’t say that. Got my Z4’s from BD last February and have had a lot of time to play around with them, whipping, aiding and what not. They’re definitely better than Aliens for everything, fit everywhere a C3 does, minus a few exceptions, but C3’s don’t fit everything Z4’s do either and they seem to be holding up just fine, despite feeling so lightweight that they’ll easily break.  I liked the stiffness of the C3’s, and how that the three lobe design felt like it locked in pinscars like passive pro. But I wouldn’t say Z4’s are crap for aid. That small green one is a lifesaver while free climbing hard thin cracks. Works phenomenally. That plastic shroud thing I was skeptical of too, but I’ve purposefully beat the hell out of it, taken big whips on horizontals, crushed it in tight constrictions and despite being a bit scratched up, it’s holding up fine, so far. It’s only been one year of heavy abuse though.

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

I wouldn’t say that. Got my Z4’s from BD last February and have had a lot of time to play around with them, whipping, aiding and what not. They’re definitely better than Aliens for everything, fit everywhere a C3 does, minus a few exceptions, but C3’s don’t fit everything Z4’s do either and they seem to be holding up just fine, despite feeling so lightweight that they’ll easily break.  I liked the stiffness of the C3’s, and how that the three lobe design felt like it locked in pinscars like passive pro. But I wouldn’t say Z4’s are crap for aid. That small green one is a lifesaver while free climbing hard thin cracks. Works phenomenally. That plastic shroud thing I was skeptical of too, but I’ve purposefully beat the hell out of it, taken big whips on horizontals, crushed it in tight constrictions and despite being a bit scratched up, it’s holding up fine, so far. It’s only been one year of heavy abuse though.

Sorry, Chad. I'm gonna go with Kev's opinion on this one unless you are hiding some very, very considerable aid wall experience from us?

Charles DuPont wrote:

Did everyone start aiding thin seams? Did aliens get worse? Are black totems dead?

I blame the recommendation for new trad leaders to aid a pitch to learn what works. Like, if you have a hard time trusting placements period, sure, top rope aid a pitch. But if that's how you learn placements, unless you aided a perfect splitter, you're now convinced that a bunch of c2+ placements are what you should look for on a 5.8.

Just like most people can have a very safe and happy climbing career without ever using a #5 camalot, so too can you survive without a black totem/000 c3/whatever.

I've owned a first-gen gray zero cam for more than a decade, i've never placed it, and I'm not sorry about that fact.

I used the C3's for the last 15 years. They are easy to place (stiff), have very narrow head-width, and fit well in certain placements where others did not (3 lobes). The stiffness made them prone to walking and not ideal over an edge. They served me well. They shine on difficult free routes with pin scars. 

Black and Blue Totems replaced the 1, 2 C3's for me. Other than bulk and 2.5mm of extra headwidth the Totems are superior and more confidence inspiring. 

Z4's have functionally replaced the smaller C3's for me. Z4's have nearly the same head-width (extra mm on either side), have more range, are lighter, walk less, place as easily, and seem to hold better. The C3's I have left gather dust. 

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

That small green one is a lifesaver while free climbing hard thin cracks. Works phenomenally.

I love the #0 Green Z4. At first I was skeptical, but over the last season I found it very useful and placed often. It's more confidence inspiring than the 000 Grey C3 and less prone to walking. Narrow head + flexibility make the Z4 the best cam in this size IMO. 

In the #0.1 Red Z4 size the #1/3 Black Alien Revo compares favorably and has nicer action, extendable sling, and more range. The Z4's has a narrower head though, that is especially useful in this tiny size. 

The 0.2 yellow Z4 is my least favorite size Z4. Its action and range are just okay. It is light and the narrow head shines. This is the size where the #0 green C3 is most competitive with the Z4. 

I don't aid, my opinion is only based on free climbing. 

A friend didn't want to use C3s...  Later that day I found him placing them and wishing he had more.

At the end of the day, he asked to borrow them. I laughed. He pleaded and bribed. I don't know where I'm going with this...

But with C3's "Tool for a Task, Task for a Tool"

hillbilly hijinks wrote:

Sorry, Chad. I'm gonna go with Kev's opinion on this one unless you are hiding some very, very considerable aid wall experience from us?

I’ve only aided about 20 pitches up to C2+ at most on them so far. But it’s only been a year since they were released, and I’m mostly a free climber. But I have had a bunch of experience climbing .12+ and low .13 cracks with them. Which requires a very intimate understanding of exactly how your gear performs. So I’m having a hard time understanding the relevance of your opinion. 

Karinia Gaston wrote:

I thought the c3 is more prone to rotating than walking due to a center cam.. Shouldn't the z4 be more prone to walking?

 In the z4 promo videos they explain that they have a rigid placement to help place like a c3. Then they say that they have a flexible stem to help prevent walking like a c3.

Also, could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure walking is just the act of a rotating cam moving from it's original placement

Karinia Gaston wrote:

I thought the c3 is more prone to rotating than walking due to a center cam.. Shouldn't the z4 be more prone to walking?

Maybe in theory, in practice it's very easy to see that isn't the case. The Z4 stays in place better, not even a close comparison. 

Salamanizer Ski wrote:

I’ve only aided about 20 pitches up to C2+ at most on them so far. But it’s only been a year since they were released, and I’m mostly a free climber. But I have had a bunch of experience climbing .12+ and low .13 cracks with them. Which requires a very intimate understanding of exactly how your gear performs. So I’m having a hard time understanding the relevance of your opinion. 

Its simple, Chad. Kevin has more aid experience so I am giving his opinion greater weight when it comes to aid climbing on Z4s.