Red Rock Timed Entry Part 3:

The original thread which is now locked can be found here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119568364/red-rock-to-begin-reservations-to-better-control-crowds

Edit: and a part 2 here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119660918/red-rock-to-begin-reservations-to-better-control-crowds-part-2

Sorry to post a new thread I never saw the above one.

I am compelled to restart this topic after recreation.gov asked me to "rate my experience". Now that the timed entry system has been up and running for awhile and we are past the busy holidays, how has your personal experience been? I have not had the best of experiences and I have left my review below. I would encourage anyone who has been asked to leave a review to leave feed back for the BLM to use. I don't claim to know the solution here but my opinion is that this whole thing is a money grab and that doesn't sit right with me.  

"This timed entry system appears to be a money grab to me. On this particular day, I made this reservation and then wasn't even able to get a parking spot at multiple parking lots. What is the point of restricting access to decrease crowding if it is not doing that. I had to pay extra to still not access what I was supposed to have a reservation for. 

I have also entered the park paying for a timed entry on days that there was already low attendance and no possible problem of crowding. In the past it seems that the crowding is only a problem on certain days, mostly weekends and holidays during the busy season. 

Prior to the timed entry system I would enter the park between 10-25 days a month. Now I must pay up to $50 more a month if I still want to use it like before and possibly be denied access? I have heard of many others having similar experiences.

Here is what I think could be possible solutions:

-There should be a sign at the gate notifying if a particular parking lot is full so a plan can be made by the user before it is too late (ex: park at first parking instead of going for sandstone quarry not knowing the SQ is full)

-Only enforce reservations on historically busy days. We shouldn't need reservations on weekdays when visitation is low. 

-If this is not a money grab, why does the timed entry cost $2 each while an overnight permit only costs $.50 which covers the administration fee. 

Pipe dream solution for the park:

-Two way road to Sandstone Quarry or even more unrealistic, 2 way road through the whole loop and add a second gate at the exit. I would gladly pay extra for this. I don't know the actual numbers but I'd bet most of the traffic into the park is concentrated in the first 3 parking lots."

Willow Springs, Icebox Canyon, and Pine Creek can be really busy.  The first lots fill up quickest being at the beginning of the loop, but all of them eventually get filled on a typically busy day.

Overall this hasn't impact me or my plans, I'm usually in there well before 8AM.  For me, having fewer cars going 15MPH driving down the middle of the lane just means I exit quicker when I'm done.

Agree on the money grab point.  Knowing this is a private company providing this service, I have to be suspicious about some backroom deal with BLM leadership in choosing this particular solution.  That's how things can sometimes work in government.  The optics of how this is being i̶m̶p̶o̶s̶e̶d̶  implemented isn't favorable in coming to a more friendly conclusion.

Thomas Gilmore wrote:

The original thread which is now locked can be found here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119568364/red-rock-to-begin-reservations-to-better-control-crowds

I am compelled to restart this topic after recreation.gov asked me to "rate my experience". 

I thought the "rate my experience" thing was for use of the website, not the use of the park or the new policy.. But since they asked, I guess you can rate either,

Kevin, I agree that entering before 8am is basically business as usual and no major changes.

Frank, this is the email I received. I think they are asking to review the whole experience.

Thomas Gilmore wrote:

Kevin, I agree that entering before 8am is basically business as usual and no major changes.

Frank, this is the email I received. I think they are asking to review the whole experience.

Thanks, Thomas. I was wrong! It won't happen again. :)

Edit: Getting in before 8 AM is key. I realize that isn't always possible, but that should be the goal.

Frank, of course no worries; this is just why I'm encouraging others to "rate their experience" as well so the BLM can hear our frustrations.

initially i was a bit concerned about all of this, but in reality it hasn't impacted us at all.

I’m absolutely pissed that I have to waste $2 every time I want to go after 8am. Even more pissed that the money doesn’t go to the park. 

I’m in before 8 most of the time but I shouldn’t have to spend extra money just because I don’t sometimes. 

Often, These days, I choose not to go at all if I don’t make it early. This causes me to further sink into the depression I’m trying to escape by going into the park. 

I hate it. It’s wrong. I have a huge problem with it. 

Does anyone happen to know if they were still collecting the $2 fee at the gate the other day when recreation.gov was down? I know they collect it from people who show up without reservations and make one on the spot...

If so, let's hope they weren't still sending that money to company that owns the site.

EMFR I wrote:

I know they collect it from people who show up without reservations and make one on the spot...

Actually this isn't always a thing anymore apparently. I showed up just past 8am on 12/31 and there were cones set out creating two lines with signs indicating to go into the left lane if you didn't have a reservation. There was an individual standing there, volunteer probably, telling people in the no reservation line that they have to immediately exit the park on the left, drive somewhere to find service, and make a reservation and come back. They said they weren't doing drive up reservations on holidays anymore. I said it's not a holiday, to which they replied they are treating it as such. 

So I pulled off right at the exit and made a reservation on my phone (had barely enough service). I drive around and go to the right with my reservation and pull up to the gate and show my pass/ID and the guy says, "oh let me make a reservation for you." Just assumes I don't have one and starts making me one. WTF??

So I guess they're just deciding not to honor their own policy of being able to get a reservation on the spot if there's availability. (There was availability, I checked before I left home and thought I could make it by 8am.) And then not telling their employees about it. I realize it's a new process for employees and visitors, but establish your rules and fricking follow them; it's just not that hard.

Last, I agree 100% that it's bullshit that the extra $2 charge goes to the very administrators of the bullshit, not the park itself. 

It's a national CONSERVATION area, not a national RECREATION area. Building more roads, or widening roads, is not part of the mandate and should never be part of the solution.

Paul Morrison wrote:

It's a national CONSERVATION area, not a national RECREATION area. Building more roads, or widening roads, is not part of the mandate and should never be part of the solution.

I think the suggestion is to take the two lane, one-way road and make some or all of it into a two-way road. No new roads need be built.

KrisG wrote:

I think the suggestion is to take the two lane, one-way road and make some or all of it into a two-way road. No new roads need be built.

This would create new hazards to cyclists.

Paul Morrison wrote:

It's a national CONSERVATION area, not a national RECREATION area. Building more roads, or widening roads, is not part of the mandate and should never be part of the solution.

on the topic of conservation, please hear me out: my suggestion is to make the loop two way to sandstone quarry. I'm gonna use some imaginary numbers here but let's say 1000 cars enter the park daily and 50% of them would only use the first 3 pullouts given the choice. If those 50% could turn around at sandstone quarry that would be 500 cars not driving the rest of the 11ish miles? Let's say that those cars average 25mpg. That's just under a half gallon of gas that those cars would burn driving the rest of the loop so to make things easy let's just say 250 gallons of gas could be saved from being burnt inside of the Conservation area per day. Or 91,250 gallons of fuel per year. Not to mention I bet quite a few of those cars are dropping oil and other chemicals along the road as they drive. This would be with using the exact infrastructure they have now just modifying driving patterns. That sounds like good conservation to me with the added benefit of possibly alleviating some crowding issues in the first 3 pullouts.

Thomas Gilmore wrote:

"This timed entry system appears to be a money grab to me.

If this is not a money grab, why does the timed entry cost $2 each while an overnight permit only costs $.50 which covers the administration fee. 

Thomas: this is not a money grab. In fact, the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area is LOSING revenue because of the switch. Direct quote from a ranger/employee: “people are voting with their dollars and not coming to the park as a result of the reservation system.”

They’re losing revenue to to the point where it could potentially result in going back to a no-reservation system simply out of necessity for funding. (They get little to no federal funding ...)

Go speak to any of the local BLM employees at RR and they will confirm this...

Edited to add: we typically go in before 8am and it’s great. And when we’ve made reservations it’s been effortless and easy. 

And to the folks who are upset at the parking situation: it’s no different than being second in line for a route. Early bird gets the worm - if you want a parking spot at a particular pullout, it’s completely within your ability to attain that.

The money being grabbed is being taken from visitors and given to a private person/company. Privatization and profit at the expense of the park. Capitalism at its finest. 

These are YOUR public lands. And YOUR dollars are being stolen by greed. 

Thomas Gilmore wrote:

on the topic of conservation, please hear me out: my suggestion is to make the loop two way to sandstone quarry. I'm gonna use some imaginary numbers here but let's say 1000 cars enter the park daily and 50% of them would only use the first 3 pullouts given the choice. If those 50% could turn around at sandstone quarry that would be 500 cars not driving the rest of the 11ish miles? Let's say that those cars average 25mpg. That's just under a half gallon of gas that those cars would burn driving the rest of the loop so to make things easy let's just say 250 gallons of gas could be saved from being burnt inside of the Conservation area per day. Or 91,250 gallons of fuel per year. Not to mention I bet quite a few of those cars are dropping oil and other chemicals along the road as they drive. This would be with using the exact infrastructure they have now just modifying driving patterns. That sounds like good conservation to me with the added benefit of possibly alleviating some crowding issues in the first 3 pullouts.

Run your numbers again using the scenario that private vehicles are not allowed but replaced with shuttle buses.  Exceptions for disabled and seniors.

Hey, Thomas Gilmore, thanks for starting a new thread on this topic. However, this is not "Part 2". This is the third thread on the same topic. The second thread can be found here:

Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds - Part 2

Just a few random thoughts here at the risk of repeating myself.

The $2 reservation fee that is tacked on to every Red Rock entry after 8am, goes to Booz Allen Hamilton, the administrator of recreation.gov. This is a huge defense contractor and they are known as being the company Edward Snowden worked for when he revealed the extent of spying on American citizens. They also administer the $0.50 late exit permit. I find this to be an obscene money grab.

We have discussed shuttles and road improvements extensively here in the Nevada section of the Mountain Project forums. The loop road is horribly constructed. It is about 1.9 lanes wide, which makes passing slow vehicles very dangerous. First and foremost the road needs to be widened and striped for two lanes. Other suggestions for road improvements include two-way travel and a separate exit road from Sandstone Quarry. However, these suggestions will do little toward solving the problem the reservation system was meant to address which is the lack of parking spaces.

There seems to be no good way to expand the second pullout parking area and this really is the crux of the problem. This lot was constructed on a narrow ridgeline with drop-offs on both sides. Find a way to park more vehicles inside the loop and maybe you'll solve the reservation problem.

Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd remove the toll booths and allow for 24-hour entry. The toll booths are the major bottle neck and closing the loop down at dark is ridiculous. This is controversial, but I'll point out that plenty of Red Rock is already accessible all around the the clock - for example, the trailheads along highway 159 (ie Oak Creek, First Creek) and down south at Black Velvet Canyon and Windy Peak. There is plenty of precedence for 24-hour access to the nearby protected landscape at Lake Mead.

The point is: follow the money. What do we get in exchange for the money we pay? BLM provides lax patrol of the land. I never see any rangers on the trails. The trails are poorly maintained, as they make minimal attempts at signage. Las Vegas Metropolitan Police provide rescue services. The BLM provides for bathroom and trash services and maybe that's about it. If we could find a way to fund those basic services, I'd say tear down the booths, end the reservation system and open up Red Rock completely.

1) just out of curiosity, how much do you think the grand total cost would be for widening the road (including all required upgrades)?

2) have you seen what happens to JTNP when it is a free for all during government shutdowns?  and JTNP is an hour or 2 away from a major metropolitan area, while RR is right next to vegas.

3) it is a lot more likely that the government would just shut the road down completely and tell climbers to hike in.  if you are having a hard time waking up early enough to get there before reservation time, are you going to wake up early enough to hike in from the road?

ideas that have some basis in reality/feasibility would probably be more helpful.

The reality is that instead of infrastructure for parks, our government is more concerned with oil pipelines and the defense budget. Environment be damned. 

When the park is closed, I do hike in from the road. Glad to have the peace and quiet of fewer visitors. 

I’m for a part time (busy season) shuttle idea similar to Zion. My question is then where do all the cars park for that??

The point is that the money is there already. They don’t need to increase costs to individuals. Especially when the money goes to individuals and not even the park. That’s just plain greed. 

The problem is when the people that get to make the decision of charging for a reservation get to set the price, what’s stopping them from increasing it?

You already pay admission. A reservation should be free

i don't disagree about the reservation cost, that seems pretty cheezy.