The Glue In Epoxy Thread

What's everyone using? Who has done testing? Has anyone used Sakrete Brand Anchoring Epoxy or Sakrete Fast Setting Epoxy? PC Products Epoxy? Researching these as an alternative to RE500/A7/Powers 100+ Gold due to their availability at big box stores, specifically Lowes and Menards. Anyone have any data on the longevity of Pure Epoxy based glues like RE500 vs Vinylester based glues like AC100. 

I'll update this space to add links to testing data and reference info. 

http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

I use AC100+. Have never had issues with it hardening to quickly, it’s easy enough to get my hands on and seems cost effective. Plus the color is pretty discrete.

I use A7+ or G5+ with the occasional eBay sourced RE500 v3.  A7+ is my go-to and has been great.  Home Depot sells it for $20 if you need single tubes.  I order by the case of 6 and often can source for $15 or less per tube.  The G5+ is the most cost effective for me (found the $$ caulk gun on eBay cheap) but the longer cure times and more drippy nature limit my use of it to the HOT weather times in TX.

AC100+ seems to always be a bit more expensive and I've never found it to be an improvement over A7+.

Given that both of the other options above are more expensive at $23.50 (Sakrete Menards) or $21.46 (PC Lowes) and lesser known (and don't seem to have ICC-ES evals)  I don't see a reason to jump ship. That said, there are likely plenty of "good enough" options out there!

I was hoping this thread could become a reference for people to search later. I've used a handful of hilti glues, A7, and primarily use AC100. I have no problem with the AC other than some quality control issues with the cartridges when they switched to Dewalt in several tubes I've used (little plastic peice falls out where the plunger presses, causing improper mixing) . It would be nice to have some alternatives for when ordering online isn't an option or when things are out of stock. Sometimes you just need one tube and don't want to wait.. Or are in a foriegn country where ordering online isn't an option.. 

For reference my local Menards had the quickrete epoxy for $15. 

If we expect our bolts to last 50-100 years we need an equally high quality glue.

 I'm less interested in positive feedback loops and empirical data. 

 Besides the curing time, how easy it is to work with, and the appearance, once cured, is an epoxy an Epoxy with similar performance over time across brands or are there differences in performance and longevity across brands? 

I looked up Sakrete epoxies and on their data sheet the compressive strengths and torque measures were comparable to the AC100+ and A7 but specifically stated no repetitive or long-term tension forces. From this, I'd say the sakrete would be a no-go just because of the repetitive vector forces on a bolt.

I'd reach out to Ryan Jenks too to see if he has any materials on this or would be willing to do an analysis. I think he's on here as Ryan Jenks or just search 'bolting bible' and his forum post will pop up.

RJ B wrote:

I looked up Sakrete epoxies and on their data sheet the compressive strengths and torque measures were comparable to the AC100+ and A7 but specifically stated no repetitive or long-term tension forces. From this, I'd say the sakrete would be a no-go just because of the repetitive vector forces on a bolt. 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but this is standard language amongst all epoxies and isn't at all relevant to the forces applied to climbing anchors (I.E. A short burst of force followed by body weight loading) there have been various creep failures in construction, namely this one. https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/east/2007/07/11/81539.htm

Good to hear the quickrete epoxies have comparable strength ratings to ac/A7, look forward to seeing more testing. 

Creep would only be an issue for threaded rod and a hanger.

Cyclic loading in the standards is nothing like what climbers do to bolts, the measure is in the millions of cycles like a tower vibrating in the wind or bolting a generator to the floor. Normally the anchors are of a specific design as well, it's not just the resin that's tested.

I've tested a handful of two-part construction adhesives. Hilti RE 500 and AC 100 Gold among them. I also tested Loctite 5-minute epoxy, just for kicks. The kind in the blister pack at Home Depot. I'm not sure why Loctite hasn't gotten more attention. The RE 500 and AC 100 get to the 1700 to 2000 psi tensile strength range, while Loctite gets to around 3200 psi. I tested all in competent sandstone with 3/8-inch 316 SS threaded bolt with 4.5 inch embedment. The failure modes of RE and AC were the same. Bolts pulled out around 28 and 31 kN. The Loctite was a differnt beast. The bolt failed in tension at 41 kN. Any thoughts on why these pure epoxies are not used more?

Neil Downendoer wrote:

I've tested a handful of two-part construction adhesives. Hilti RE 500 and AC 100 Gold among them. I also tested Loctite 5-minute epoxy, just for kicks. The kind in the blister pack at Home Depot. I'm not sure why Loctite hasn't gotten more attention. The RE 500 and AC 100 get to the 1700 to 2000 psi tensile strength range, while Loctite gets to around 3200 psi. I tested all in competent sandstone with 3/8-inch 316 SS threaded bolt with 4.5 inch embedment. The failure modes of RE and AC were the same. Bolts pulled out around 28 and 31 kN. The Loctite was a differnt beast. The bolt failed in tension at 41 kN. Any thoughts on why these pure epoxies are not used more?

Too runny.

I've been wondering about bulk epoxy applications.  I built a wooden sailboat last year and the price difference between bulk and cartridge epoxies is quite significant.  I like that with bulk you can mix it yourself to ensure a good mix and I would think you could thicken it with cement to avoid dripping.  With glue ins becoming more popular hopefully someone can bring to market a climber specific bulk epoxy system.

Chris Michalowski wrote:

I've been wondering about bulk epoxy applications.  I built a wooden sailboat last year and the price difference between bulk and cartridge epoxies is quite significant.  I like that with bulk you can mix it yourself to ensure a good mix and I would think you could thicken it with cement to avoid dripping.  With glue ins becoming more popular hopefully someone can bring to market a climber specific bulk epoxy system.

I started out this way when cartridge systems weren't available using steel-setting epoxy. It comes with cement mixed in as a filler but it's still too runny ( the cement is for bulk not thickening) and mixed colloidal silica in to make it thicker and thixotropic.

Delivery is the problem, I packed it into a grease gun which works fine. BUT you have to use it all in one go, I had about 1/2 an hour before it started to go off. AND then you've got to clean the grease gun so at the bottom of the cliff take it completely apart (including the pump and valves) and wash it all out with acetone.

Never again!

Chris Michalowski wrote:

I've been wondering about bulk epoxy applications.  I built a wooden sailboat last year and the price difference between bulk and cartridge epoxies is quite significant.  I like that with bulk you can mix it yourself to ensure a good mix and I would think you could thicken it with cement to avoid dripping.  With glue ins becoming more popular hopefully someone can bring to market a climber specific bulk epoxy system.

Using the larger cartridges and diligent shopping can reduce costs while maintaining the ease of use of the smaller systems to some degree.  eBay is the key for finding used specialty caulk guns that the manufacturers charge $100+ for.  Once you have the larger gun, also watch eBay for bulk nozzles.  I've gotten my A7+ costs down just below $1/oz BUT you need to have a lot of holes ready to go all at once or the nozzle costs start eating into that savings.  I'll typically prep 2 even 3 adjacent routes and then bang them all out if the temps allow.

Jim Titt wrote:

I started out this way when cartridge systems weren't available using steel-setting epoxy. It comes with cement mixed in as a filler but it's still too runny ( the cement is for bulk not thickening) and mixed colloidal silica in to make it thicker and thixotropic.

Delivery is the problem, I packed it into a grease gun which works fine. BUT you have to use it all in one go, I had about 1/2 an hour before it started to go off. AND then you've got to clean the grease gun so at the bottom of the cliff take it completely apart (including the pump and valves) and wash it all out with acetone.

Never again!

My first thought for a bulk applicator was a cheap throwaway piping bag like what pastry chefs use for frosting.  It would need a tip so you could get glue to the back of the hole.

Chris Michalowski wrote:

My first thought for a bulk applicator was a cheap throwaway piping bag like what pastry chefs use for frosting.  It would need a tip so you could get glue to the back of the hole.

MacGyver would use an old caulk tube.

What do people think about this glue?

https://www.mcmaster.com/7625T53/

M M wrote:

MacGyver would use an old caulk tube.

Perhaps a fillable caulking tube?

Loctite runs around $2 per 3/8" or 1/2" hole. The tensile strength is around 3200 psi. For reference, RE 500 and AC 100 are around 1800 psi. Loctite has no cleanup and works great when you have two holes or 20 holes. Mask off the hole and the runniness is no longer an issue. The thinner epoxy also penetrates porous rock much better than RE or AC.

Neil Downendoer wrote:

Loctite runs around $2 per 3/8" or 1/2" hole. The tensile strength is around 3200 psi. For reference, RE 500 and AC 100 are around 1800 psi. Loctite has no cleanup and works great when you have two holes or 20 holes. Mask off the hole and the runniness is no longer an issue. The thinner epoxy also penetrates porous rock much better than RE or AC.

Thats interesting info, Ive thought of using it when only one or two bolts needed to be done. The tape thing seems like it could work pretty well 

Neil Downendoer wrote:

Loctite runs around $2 per 3/8" or 1/2" hole. The tensile strength is around 3200 psi. For reference, RE 500 and AC 100 are around 1800 psi. Loctite has no cleanup and works great when you have two holes or 20 holes. Mask off the hole and the runniness is no longer an issue. The thinner epoxy also penetrates porous rock much better than RE or AC.

It's the shear strength that matters, not the tensile. The mode of failure of a climbing bolt is when the resin in the irregularities in the bolt or rock shears off. Any reasonably designed bolt doesn't need epoxy to hold it in, I've never tested one that couldn't get the certification requirements using polyester resin and the nowadays more usually used vinylester is easily strong enough that normally the bolt breaks first. For our 6mm x 80mm twisted-leg bolts we get 32-38kN with polyester and over 40kN with vinylester.

Quite a few can even get the standard using quick-setting cement which was the traditional method before chemical fastening became popular, I've bolted routes this way and it sure is cheap! Takes a few days to cure enough though.

For single bolts the usual solution is vinylester glass capsules, you just need to make sure the bolt is suitable for them. Cost is around 1€ a hole but for alpine use they are ideal ( and you can use them within minutes) as it saves carrying a load of gear. They usually give the highest pull-out values of all the systems as well.We reckon roughly 0.50€ per hole with normal cartridge vinylester.

Jim Titt wrote:

For single bolts the usual solution is vinylester glass capsules, you just need to make sure the bolt is suitable for them. Cost is around 1€ a hole but for alpine use they are ideal ( and you can use them within minutes) as it saves carrying a load of gear. They usually give the highest pull-out values of all the systems as well.

As in SLBs because you need to spin them in the hole or something else?  Here it looks like the Dewalt Powers ones do not require spinning.  That would be handy with twists for 1-2 bolt anchor upgrades a long way from the road.  Burning a $2-4 nozzle each time gets old.  Volume in each capsule seems to be something to watch vs the bolt being used.