Bladerunners vs petzl dart

Looking to upgrade from my sarkens and debating between the two. Which is better? I will be doing pretty much only ice, minimal mixed. 

I really like the Bladerunners on ice. They are stiff and the thin monopoint is nice when it's brittle. Think the difference between a thick general/mixed tool pick VS a dedicated ice pick in terms of displacement. 

The Petzl mono is burlier and sticks out further so I imagine would be better for mixed, but I don't climb any hard mixed. 

I don't think either will make or break a climb, wouldn't agonize over it. But I'd take the Cassins. 

Edit: I should say for full disclosure that while I have the Dart front sections I've not used them, but I have climbed in the Lynx with mono points (same points). The secondary points on the Darts might be a smidge more aggressive but I don't think that would sway my choice.

• I think the blade runners have a lot more stability on ice because of the 2 secondary points on either side if the mono point. Darts don't have them. I have the bladerunners and I like them. And so do almost all my partners who also like them. 

How bulky are the blade runners, I know they  cant collapse like the darts. 

jdejace put his finger on what is IMO an overlooked and under-appreciated difference: the thickness of that monopoint. I split my time between Darts (fat point) and older Charlet crampons with a thin frontpoint virtually identical to the BR. It's like night vs day when the ice is cold and hard. In fact I've ground off as much of the "hood" of the Dart points as I can in an attempt to get something closer to full depth sticks. They now look a bit like the frontpoints of the BD Cyborg/Stinger (which IME still don't sink as well as a fully thin FP). And don't get me started on the ridiculous "flat foot" of the Darts' secondary points.

I upgraded from Sarkens to Darts. Here's why. I had two pairs of Sarkens, one with a lot more use than the other. I purchased the Dart front sections and swapped out the front section on the more used Sarkens. So now instead of two Sarkens, I have one Sarken crampon and one Dart crampon. This would save you some cash, but also requires you to swap the front sections back and forth if you wanted to switch.

I like how the Darts climbed. I keep them in mono and I feel good with them.

Eliot Hack wrote:

How bulky are the blade runners, I know they  cant collapse like the darts. 

Depends how big your feet are. These are size 48s next to the Lynx. Darts are a little shorter. 

Hi Folks.  I tried Blades for a season and didn't keep there.  I now have Darts.  Here's why.  

-My big problem with the Blades involves the fit and SAFETY of the attachment to the boots. I've mentioned this before, but nobody else seems to have acknowledged this yet.  Am I crazy?  I have big feet, size 48.  With the larger crampon section (the Blades comes in two sizes) I can get the Blades to apparently fit nicely on my boots (see below).  But when I tighten the heel bail, the angled portion of the heel frame compresses against the front edge of the heel of my boot.  I know this is theoretically part of the design; I remember reading something, or watching a video from Cassin that talked about distributing the force of kicking from toe to heel.  But to me it's a big SAFETY issue.  When you close the heel bail, and the angled portion of the rear crampon frame compresses against the front edge of the heel, then there is less force pulling the toe bail onto the front of the boot.  When my crampons were set up correctly, I could close the heel bail with a resounding "snap" and the tension and fit seemed perfect. Then I would look at the toe bail and see it moving around slightly. The toe was not tight. The tension I felt from the heel lever came from compressing the rear frame against the heel. The solution would be too grind down part of the heel of the boot, but I didn't want to do that. As I said, I have big feet and I used the large size crampons, but I can see this hapening as well with smaller boots and the small size crampon. CHECK your Blade Runners!  

-I bent two of the front points (on ice not mixed).  Yes, they penetrate really well in hard ice, but they're not so secure in softer ice, and for big guys like me, 6'4" 210 pounds, the front points are too soft. 

-They have perhaps the best underfoot point configuration and stability of any modern crampon I've tried. The coverage, the orientation, the solidity on lower angle ice, when standing with a foot sideways on a sloped ledge, and so on.  I really loved this sense of security, but didn't keep the crampons for the reasons mentioned above.  

Good luck out there, 

Bruno

What boots Bruno? If you meant to attach a photo I don't see it. Size 48 Phantom Techs and Phantom 6000s here. The metal is snug against the heels, but the front bail isn't going anywhere. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

Hi Folks.  I tried Blades for a season and didn't keep there.  I now have Darts.  Here's why.  

-My big problem with the Blades involves the fit and SAFETY of the attachment to the boots. I've mentioned this before, but nobody else seems to have acknowledged this yet.  Am I crazy?  I have big feet, size 48.  With the larger crampon section (the Blades comes in two sizes) I can get the Blades to apparently fit nicely on my boots (see below).  But when I tighten the heel bail, the angled portion of the heel frame compresses against the front edge of the heel of my boot.  I know this is theoretically part of the design; I remember reading something, or watching a video from Cassin that talked about distributing the force of kicking from toe to heel.  But to me it's a big SAFETY issue.  When you close the heel bail, and the angled portion of the rear crampon frame compresses against the front edge of the heel, then there is less force pulling the toe bail onto the front of the boot.  When my crampons were set up correctly, I could close the heel bail with a resounding "snap" and the tension and fit seemed perfect. Then I would look at the toe bail and see it moving around slightly. The toe was not tight. The tension I felt from the heel lever came from compressing the rear frame against the heel. 

That makes perfect sense. The heel lever pulls the crampon back. Either the "linking bar heel bend" is going to take the tension, or the toe bail is. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

Hi Folks.  I tried Blades for a season and didn't keep there.  I now have Darts.  Here's why.  

-My big problem with the Blades involves the fit and SAFETY of the attachment to the boots. I've mentioned this before, but nobody else seems to have acknowledged this yet.  Am I crazy?  I have big feet, size 48.  With the larger crampon section (the Blades comes in two sizes) I can get the Blades to apparently fit nicely on my boots (see below).  But when I tighten the heel bail, the angled portion of the heel frame compresses against the front edge of the heel of my boot.  I know this is theoretically part of the design; I remember reading something, or watching a video from Cassin that talked about distributing the force of kicking from toe to heel.  But to me it's a big SAFETY issue.  When you close the heel bail, and the angled portion of the rear crampon frame compresses against the front edge of the heel, then there is less force pulling the toe bail onto the front of the boot.  When my crampons were set up correctly, I could close the heel bail with a resounding "snap" and the tension and fit seemed perfect. Then I would look at the toe bail and see it moving around slightly. The toe was not tight. The tension I felt from the heel lever came from compressing the rear frame against the heel. The solution would be too grind down part of the heel of the boot, but I didn't want to do that. As I said, I have big feet and I used the large size crampons, but I can see this hapening as well with smaller boots and the small size crampon. CHECK your Blade Runners!  

-I bent two of the front points (on ice not mixed).  Yes, they penetrate really well in hard ice, but they're not so secure in softer ice, and for big guys like me, 6'4" 210 pounds, the front points are too soft. 

-They have perhaps the best underfoot point configuration and stability of any modern crampon I've tried. The coverage, the orientation, the solidity on lower angle ice, when standing with a foot sideways on a sloped ledge, and so on.  I really loved this sense of security, but didn't keep the crampons for the reasons mentioned above.  

Good luck out there, 

Bruno

I spent probably close to 2 hours adjusting the fit of my BRs for that reason. There is so much variation possible. I think I ended up having the toe bail attached unevenly- the first hole on one side of the boot, the second on the other. I also fussed around a lot with the heel lever- it's amazing how much difference a centimeter makes in the height of the heel lever in regards to fit. Took a while but once it was dialed in they fit amazingly well. 

For the north east where I climb we have all types of ice, which has the best preformance across soft, to plastic, and brittle ice. With the sarkens can you directly change the fronts to the darts, I read that the bar in the middle isn’t the same and is loose when you switch. 

I own and use both.  

Generally speaking, I much prefer the Blade Runners for climbing ice.  The thin mono point penetrates hard ice much better than the fatter, hooded point on the Dart.  When you have to be delicate, it can be hard to get enough penetration with the Dart front point.  Delicate foot placements on thin, fragile ice are not an issue with the Blade Runner.  

Conversely, the front points on the Cassin blade runner wear down extremely quickly on rock.  I try to avoid using them on rock, if at all possible.  You cannot get much separation from the front point to the secondary points on the Blade Runner, which also makes them worse mixed climbing or drytooling.  

There are other minor differences, but they aren't really worth mentioning.  With the stock front points, the Dart is almost always going to be better for mixed and drytooling.  With the stock front points, the Bladerunner is almost always going to be better for pure ice.  

P.S. I recommend using toe baskets for the front crampon attachment on both the Blade Runner and Dart.  Much better security with no loss of performance.  In my opinion, toe bails are basically obsolete for crampon attachments to mountaineering boots.  Possible exceptions for ski boots and other exceptionally tall or wide mountaineering boots, but I have yet to find a case where I would rather have a toe bail on a single or gaitered boot.  

Eliot Hack wrote:

For the north east where I climb we have all types of ice, which has the best preformance across soft, to plastic, and brittle ice. With the sarkens can you directly change the fronts to the darts, I read that the bar in the middle isn’t the same and is loose when you switch. 

I did the Sarken front to Dart front switch and this does not seem to be an issue after two seasons.

Karl Henize wrote:

P.S. I recommend using toe baskets for the front crampon attachment on both the Blade Runner and Dart.  Much better security with no loss of performance.  In my opinion, toe bails are basically obsolete for crampon attachments to mountaineering boots.  Possible exceptions for ski boots and other exceptionally tall or wide mountaineering boots, but I have yet to find a case where I would rather have a toe bail on a single or gaitered boot.  

Cool you pointed this out! I am finding the same to be true as well, preferring the newmatic style binding over the toe bail. Also eliminates the BS with different boots fitting, not fitting, swapping bails etc. for a better fit. And it is rock solid, no movement, not even a millimeter. People always told me this style wasn’t for steep ice, but I beg to differ

we had a hard time getting crampons to stay on Isa's  nepal evos. I ended up getting her a pair of Petzle Lynx with the toe basket and she loves them. 

jdejace wrote:

What boots Bruno? If you meant to attach a photo I don't see it. Size 48 Phantom Techs and Phantom 6000s here. The metal is snug against the heels, but the front bail isn't going anywhere. 

Hi jdjace.  I used the Blade Runners with Scarpa Phantom 6000's and Phantom Guide's from two generations back (I think).  They were the last generation with the fully staight zipper, black and orange.  On those boots....the crampons did not work for me.  Glad they work on your boots!  As I said above, I love the underfoot point configuration, and the general design.  My problems were fit and bendy front points.  

jdejace wrote:

What boots Bruno? If you meant to attach a photo I don't see it. Size 48 Phantom Techs and Phantom 6000s here. The metal is snug against the heels, but the front bail isn't going anywhere. 

Wow, is this your set-up for ice climbing? I can barely see anything I'd call a frontpoint.

It's just the angle of the photo. Odd. 

Hi again jdejace.  I was looking more closely at the pictures of your boots.  Nice to see shots from another big foot, like me.  I like the way the secondary and tertiary points supports the front of the foot, and the way that the last points give you something meaningful underfoot (for example, when standing with your feet sideways on low angle ice, or on cauliflowers, and so on).   But you can see some of the compromise in fit in the back; the rear portion, with the angled blocking shelf, isn't really long enough to fit completely under the heel of the boot.  Probably not a real issue, but it would be cool to see manufacturers make stuff that actually works with big feet/boots.  Regarding the front points, yeah, the angle is weird, but I'm betting there are some mono-points hiding in there, perhaps angled toward the flat surface where the boots are resting?  Have you experimented with moving the toe bail backward/front section forward?  Maybe better for softer ice, but not as good for hard ice or mixed?  I just got a pair of the newest Scarpas, so I'm curious.  All the best.

My toe bails are offset like how Ira O mentioned. I'm pretty happy with what I've got sticking out, haven't felt the need to experiment extensively.