When to use Single / Half / Twin Ropes

I bought some mammut double ropes a month or so ago and after taking them on a few outings am noticing how much more of a hassle they are on standard multipitch climbs (vs. tailing an additional full rated rope for when a double rap rappel is needed).  Rope management when you are belaying both ropes with your ATC is more of an issue, they seem to be introducing more drag into the system on lead, clipping two ropes can be more challenging, as well as they seem to tangle easier.  Am I missing something?  What are some of the use cases for using double ropes vs. single?

Do you have half ropes or twins and are you clipping them both in the same draw or alternating? You can tell what you have by the marking on the end of the rope...1/2 (half, duh) or two circles entertwined (twins). Some "double" ropes are rated for both half and twin use. If you have half ropes, you clip each one independently--alternating clips. This is good for meandering pitches and just generally reduces rope drag. If they are only rated as  twin ropes, you have to clip them together, but I wouldn't expect more rope drag there than with a single rope. Main benefit in my opinion is having two ropes for longer raps. 

Rope management at the belay is indeed a little trickier with two ropes. Go out with someone who is really good at it (like a guide) and observe what they do.

Michael Atlas wrote:

Am I missing something? 

You've missed nothing.  Doubles are for ice climbers and Euros on ez climbs.  The biggest detriment is indeed increased rope drag, even if the doubles are lighter than a single + tag line - you're dragging more surface area through all your gear and over the rock.  For the once in a blue moon trad route where doubles are helpful for a wandering route - use longer runners - or just skip it and find a better route.

Takes practice. If you are climbing routes with wandering pitches and protection that isn't fairly linear doubles are great. Belaying is pretty active though. If you find yourself staring into space and daydreaming you will probably be awakened with a rope tangle.

I don't climb with twins much. I would rather do main rope with a separate rap rope (or if possible a single, longer rope).

I mean if you get a skinny 9mm single rope (or thinner) and a 6mm tag line you're only a few hundred grams heavier than a double rope set up.Which isn't so bad and I doubt that will be what holds you back from sending.

Also DMM makes a carabiner with a pulley wheel on it and using that on the rope end of a quickdraw will greatly reduce rope drag.

Bought a pair of dual rated half ropes for when I go out for long multipitch routes with a rap off.  In that case I would probably use them as twins.  I was looking at the weight issues of using my regular 70 and a tag line, and just figured that the 1/2 ropes would be lighter. If I were doing something that I knew really meandered, I would probably try and use them as half ropes and see if they would help with the drag.  Of course, before I went out and did it, I would want to work on my belay and rope management.  

Steve House gives a nice explanation of his experience with various ropes here in post #3

https://www.uphillathlete.com/forums/topic/rope-single-tag-half-or-twin/

I always think of this accident report when I am considering doubles or not:

http://www.alpenglow.org/nwmj/10/101_Terror2.html

"Steve and Steph had been climbing on a doubled half-rope, and one strand had been nearly severed during the fall. Only the fact that the rope had been doubled, leaving the other strand intact, had saved Steph and Steve from falling off of the mountain. Donn cut the rope in half at the exposed core so that Steve and I could tie into the anchor on separate strands."

Dara wrote:

Do you have half ropes or twins and are you clipping them both in the same draw or alternating? You can tell what you have by the marking on the end of the rope...1/2 (half, duh) or two circles entertwined (twins). Some "double" ropes are rated for both half and twin use. If you have half ropes, you clip each one independently--alternating clips. This is good for meandering pitches and just generally reduces rope drag. If they are only rated as  twin ropes, you have to clip them together, but I wouldn't expect more rope drag there than with a single rope. Main benefit in my opinion is having two ropes for longer raps. 

Rope management at the belay is indeed a little trickier with two ropes. Go out with someone who is really good at it (like a guide) and observe what they do.

They are Mammut ropes that are rated to both Half and Twin.  I was clipping both to the same draw.  Looks like for these ropes, I can alternate clips, however isn't that also going to make belaying more complex for the belaying by forcing them to take in more slack on 1 rope vs the other?

slim wrote:

Takes practice. If you are climbing routes with wandering pitches and protection that isn't fairly linear doubles are great. Belaying is pretty active though. If you find yourself staring into space and daydreaming you will probably be awakened with a rope tangle.

I don't climb with twins much. I would rather do main rope with a separate rap rope (or if possible a single, longer rope).

"wandering pitches and protection that isn't fairly linear" this is most NC trad climbs in a nut shell ;).  

Michael Atlas wrote:

 Looks like for these ropes, I can alternate clips, however isn't that also going to make belaying more complex for the belaying by forcing them to take in more slack on 1 rope vs the other?

Yes. 

It’s a technique worth learning. 

I take double/half ropes in only 2 cases:

1/ Ice climbing
2/ Alpine or multipitch with an abseil greater than 25 meters

Even when I take double I use a particular set up that allow maximum flexibility, I use a 50 meters Beal Opera (triple rated) in conjuction with a Beal Gully (double) 

Other than that you don't need double.
Never got the point of twin ropes (useless IMHO)

Michael Atlas wrote:

They are Mammut ropes that are rated to both Half and Twin.  I was clipping both to the same draw.  Looks like for these ropes, I can alternate clips, however isn't that also going to make belaying more complex for the belaying by forcing them to take in more slack on 1 rope vs the other?

In my experience it is not as bad as you'd think but it is a bit different. They can more or less be treated as one rope with the exception of high clips. Even then, it's fairly intuitive to feed out the one rope. Personally I am also usually trad/adventure climbing when I used half ropes and thus not climbing at my sport limit, so I am much less likely to actually fall whilst high-clipping.

Always use a set of 50m half ropes when in the UK on grit.  Seems to be legally required.  The ancient Genesis flavor appears to be preferred. 

If you’re using half ropes and getting more rope drag then you’re definitely doing something wrong. In addition to long rappels, reducing drag is one of the primary benefits of half (not twin) ropes. I learned half ropes while we lived in the UK. There are some tricks to belaying and rope management. Find someone who’s good at it and observe/ask lots of questions. Once you get used to them, they’re quite easy, but there is a learning curve. I use them any time I’m dealing with double rope raps. 

Michael Atlas wrote:

I bought some mammut double ropes a month or so ago and after taking them on a few outings am noticing how much more of a hassle they are on standard multipitch climbs (vs. tailing an additional full rated rope for when a double rap rappel is needed).  Rope management when you are belaying both ropes with your ATC is more of an issue, they seem to be introducing more drag into the system on lead, clipping two ropes can be more challenging, as well as they seem to tangle easier.  Am I missing something?  What are some of the use cases for using double ropes vs. single?

It sounds like you're using them as twin ropes, i.e. clipping both ropes to every piece. Try using them as half ropes. See HERE. The one point I disagree with that page on is that it's entirely safe to fall on one half rope--this isn't the ambiguous thing they're saying it is. I have the same ropes as you and I've fallen on one of them multiple times.

Half ropes will reduce drag rather than increase it, can decrease the distance of lead falls in a lot of situations.

Michael Atlas wrote:

I bought some mammut double ropes a month or so ago and after taking them on a few outings am noticing how much more of a hassle they are on standard multipitch climbs (vs. tailing an additional full rated rope for when a double rap rappel is needed).  Rope management when you are belaying both ropes with your ATC is more of an issue, they seem to be introducing more drag into the system on lead, clipping two ropes can be more challenging, as well as they seem to tangle easier.  Am I missing something?  What are some of the use cases for using double ropes vs. single?

I've been using half ropes for single and multipitch climbing for at least 30 years.  They have so many advantages I now feel constrained when a partner makes me use only one rope.  Of course I'm speaking of alternate clipping---not even alternate clipping, but running two more or less parallel lines up the route, sometimes clipping the left strand multiple times and same with the right strand.  Done right, you get notably less friction, often without having to extend placements.  In tricky situations you can get  better protection with less fussing for both leader and second, complicated trad anchors are much easier to set up,  you are protected from the consequences of blowing high clips, you get lower fall impact loads because of the reduced friction, you have a redundant main safety system that can recover in case a strand is severed, you can belay two seconds simultaneously on many routes and so climb as a party of three nearly as fast as a party of two, and of course you have the option of full-length raps without the potential, in case of a snag, of having to carry on with a tag line for your rope.  There's more, but that's a sample.

Of course there is a learning curve for both leading and belaying.  I suspect that some experienced climbers who already know their way around single-rope technique encounter some issues on their first days out with half ropes and give up on the idea without ever having practiced enough to reap the advantages and avoid the pitfalls.  And of course it's not all positive.  The two ropes weigh more, and at the end of a very long pitch you might notice the combined weight. The leader has to look ahead a plan which rope to clip where.  Two ropes are more prone to tangling than one and so attention has to be paid to piling and stacking if you don't want to spend your day undoing Gordian knots.  If you are climbing splitter cracks, you have two ropes getting in your way rather than one.  Some of the half-rope advantages are negated if the belayer can't control both strands independently.  This is not particularly hard, but requires more attention than seems commonplace nowadays.  If your belayer is messing up with a single rope and a Grigri, forget about half ropes!  And speaking of Grigris, you can't use them.  Either an ordinary tube-style device or one of the assisted-braking gadgets---I think the CT Alpine Up is the best of the lot for half ropes.

I have been climbing over 20 years and have never used doubles. Long backcountry Sierra climbs and Red Rock multipitch included.  I've used twins many times, when the rappels require it. 

Not sure why you can't just extend as needed, and stick with a single. Have fun with the cluster. :)

They're mostly a PITA but I've used two ropes on occasion. Last time I recall was putting up a route in an overhanging chimney full of loose rock (thought I had chopped one of them at one point). I've also used them where there is an obvious huge traverse. Some people like them because they can take on one rope and place gear with the other and somehow pretend this constitutes free climbing.

FrankPS wrote:

I have been climbing over 20 years and have never used doubles. 

...which disqualifies your opinions about them, right?

rgold wrote:

...which disqualifies your opinions about them, right?

I'm merely pointing out that I've never needed them. If you prefer to climb with two ropes, that's your call. One has sufficed for me for a long time, barring the occasional use of twins.

I'm with Rgold on this one. I love using the half rope technique with doubles. I really don't find them to be much of a cluster if you pay attention. It takes a little more attention to belay, but shouldn't you be paying attention anyway? It takes some getting used to bit it ain't rocket science.