Wide Boyz Look at Empath for Jams

I brought this topic up when someone shared the original video in the Awesome Sport Climbing Movies thread, so I'm glad that the authorities on hard crack climbing did their own analysis.

• Carlo Traversi FA
• Jimmy Webb and Daniel Woods get second and third ascents

I'm the farthest thing from an authority on hard sport and hard crack climbing, but I voiced by curiosity about whether or not the route could be partially jammed and/or led with gear: "I hope for their sakes that the route really is 15a and that the Wideboyz won't come and make it share the same fate as Pamela Pack's routes."

As Pete and Tom note, Traversi has some hard trad ascents to his name and has spent a ton of time climbing on granite, so you'd think he would know how to jam properly and would have used it if possible. Sounds like they're psyched to try it and I'm super curious what will happen. When Pete checked out Silence he basically said that there is a jamming sequence that's a bit easier than Ondra's drop knee, but it's not like it changed the overall difficulty very much. On Empath, it looks like they might be able to jam for most of the route. 

Discuss.

Oh, but wouldn't it just be beautiful if Pete and Tom lobsterclaw their way up and downgrade the route! Not so much to mess with Traversi, Woods or Webb, they hardly have anything to prove re. hard climbing, but more because it would be a hilarious video and Pete and Tom are great. Maybe instead of downgrading they could earn the right to re-name the route to "Revenge of the Trad Dad" or maybe "Crayfish finish last"...

Would be awesome if it went down on gear.

Tal Wanish wrote:

Pretty sure Carlo tried to snipe the magic line first redpoint from Lonnie when he was working meltdown so I'm hoping Lonnie goes up and sends this and downgrades it. I'm not sure how interested in super hard climbing he is anymore or if Carlo actually was the one who tried to snipe it, but if he is and if he was, it would be some nice justice. That being said, Lonnie doesn't strike me as the type of guy to hold grudges.

Didn't hear about that drama, interesting. I don't want to disparage the line, Empath looks super freaking cool—the rock, the features, the movement, the wall, everything. There's just something about boulder bros liebacking cracks and calling it 5.15 that has me a little curious, ya know? 

Edited to add: Granted, Jimmy Webb and Daniel Woods aren't your average boulder bros—Webb having sent Dreamcatcher and Woods having climbed a bit in Flatanger. It's more of a stylistic thing—they approached the climb a very particular way (as the Wide Boyz point out, they compared it to thuggy tufa pinching), but it could be climbed in a totally different style that they're not as familiar with.

I agree, it would be super cool to see Lonnie give it ago. Tommy Caldwell would be the other person I'd be curious to see try it—has a super strong sport climber background, but obvious knows more than a thing or two about jamming. 

The Wide Boyz trying to find a jam or two on silence (or this new route) is like me out sprinting an Olympic marathoner for 20 seconds. Pretty dang irrelevant. 

Eric D wrote:

The Wide Boyz trying to find a jam or two on silence (or this new route) is like me out sprinting an Olympic marathoner for 20 seconds. Pretty dang irrelevant. 

On Silence, I agree.

But on this route...I'm not so sure. There are continuous crack features the entire length of the climb and if they can find jams or stances to skip some of the harder moves, it could be significant.

Edited to add in response to Long Ranger: yeah, almost certainly it doesn’t go on gear and it can’t be feasibly jammed. I’m just optimistic we’ll get an epic crack climber vs. boulderer duel

If it had good cracks, it would go on gear, which it doesn't - nothing at that grade really does. I see seams and flared terribleness, but nothing to write home about. The Wide Boyz vid is just a bit of fun.  They're probably bored, being on enhanced lockdown. Why not dream of climbing something you can't even travel to? 

Of all the 5.15 routes that look like 5.13, Empath is the 5.13eyest-looking of them all. But granite is weird like that.

Eric D wrote:

The Wide Boyz trying to find a jam or two on silence (or this new route) is like me out sprinting an Olympic marathoner for 20 seconds. Pretty dang irrelevant. 

Not if a future strong sport/boulderers takes Pete's jamming beta on Silence, sends it and then downgrades it. It would be pretty relevant then. 

Empath looks super old school, as it's not wildly overhanging but TF can I make out just in photos and videos.

Scott D wrote:

Not if a future strong sport/boulderers takes Pete's jamming beta on Silence, sends it and then downgrades it. It would be pretty relevant then. 

True!  Just as relevant as me keeping up my sprint for the full 2 hours and winning Olympic gold!

I’m pretty familiar with the area and granite around where Empath is located. It can be horrifically flairing and a bit crunchy with white calcite mineral deposits solidifying the kitty litter surface beneath. Can some of it be jammed? Probably, but they more than likely wouldn’t be great jams, and sometimes it’s easier to pinch or crimp your way around, then it is to try to milk an off hand, flairing, bottomed out pseudo crack guarded by flesh eating mineral deposit teeth. 

Tal Wanish wrote:

Pretty sure Carlo tried to snipe the magic line first redpoint from Lonnie when he was working meltdown so I'm hoping Lonnie goes up and sends this and downgrades it. 

What, so the first redpoint has to belong to Lonnie b/c his dad pinkpointed it first? It wasn't a red-tagged line & everyone was free to give it a go.

Anyway, between Ondra's videos of projecting a route he's not going to send this year to the wide boyz making a video of a route they haven't seen in-person, I'm betting in 2021 we'll have pro-climbers making videos of sick new projects that don't yet exist.

Tal Wanish wrote:

No - there's more to it than that. Lonnie was actively projecting it, and was getting close enough to it that he was reaching out about film crews when one of the companies he reached out to sent someone (assuming carlo) over to start working it with a film crew, essentially kicking Lonnie off. Pretty poor style. It was pretty common knowledge that Lonnie was going for the red point since he had already pinkpointed it.

Article Link

There just seem to be a pile of logical leaps and assumptions here (both in the article you linked and in your retelling of it) that are trying to turn this into some sort of drama. Agree with reboot - there's nothing to "snipe", no one was entitled to a first redpoint here. 

Tal Wanish wrote:

I'm not really the one making the drama ...  and Carlo is kind of a dickhead otherwise too which originates my whole original point of "I hope Lonnie goes and sends it and downgrades it"...

I definitely don't care enough to go point-by-point with you on this discussion, but I did get a kick out of the contradiction above. 

Tal Wanish wrote:

calling someone a dickhead isn't starting drama. 

Do you have some back story besides that article? Because undeservingly calling someone a dickhead is being dramatic and yes, that would make you the one starting drama.

From the article you linked:

ARE YOU GETTING SUPPORT FROM THE CLIMBING INDUSTRY?

Lonnie: No, not really. You would think the climbing industry would be interested especially given the father-son dynamic, but I kind of feel pushed out of the climbing industry. I have tried to connect with a few sponsors, but they don’t respond at all.

I don't know Lonnie (I do appreciate his climbing movement style as depicted in RR15), but this sure reads like "I tried to pawn off some sponsorship b/c of my famous dad and nobody took the bait. That ain't right!"

Connor Herson jammed much of it, skipping many of the cruxes. He didn't grade it.

Stig gles wrote:

Connor Herson jammed much of it, skipping many of the cruxes. He didn't grade it.

Sounds like you're right about skipping the cruxes:

How was the process taking it down? Did you use crack gloves like Pringle? (c) Tradisplaid
I think I sent empath on my 5th session, but I nearly sent it on my 3rd and 4th sessions as well. I was able to jam my way past the three of the four cruxes on the route, making each of them substantially easier. I did not wear any tape or crack gloves for the send.

source

Is this as hard as Necessary Evil, Meltdown (even if led on pre-placed gear like a sport climb), Hubble, or Kryponite, all famous benchmark .14c routes? (.14d for Kryptonite)

I bet if you took 20 climbers who have climbed 9a in the last couple years and gave them 2 weeks (including rest days) to try this route and then 2 weeks to try a variety of historic benchmark .14c pitches, the batting average would be better on Empath than most of the others. (IE it would be proved an easier climb).

There's no way this is 5.15, even if you don't know how to rock climb with the use of your hands or feet in a crack.

But it does look amazing and unusual!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CP6qnd3D3wO/?utm_medium=copy_link

Pringle suggests 14+

When you finally realize that two blokes living in the U.K. can and will figure out crack beta on any climb in the U.S. better than you