Trango Vergo - the GriGri slayer?

I have a whole "review" written up, but it's quite long, and you all probably don't want to read the whole thing, so I'll just say this... The Vergo slays the GriGri. 

Even though it is tricky to switch over from a grigri, once you have the handling down, it is FAR smoother, and takes way less effort to use than the OG. If you have left shoulder pains from paying out slack with your partner's unwashed dirty rope, then id highly recommend the Vergo as your main device. This thing is revolutionary, and im surprised people aren't raving about it.

Yup. It suffered from the issues with the recall when it first dropped and people's issues with the cinch so it's been an uphill battle in terms of public perception. But yes, It is FAR superior to any other assisted braking belay device i've use for paying out slack smoothly, quickly, and safely as well as general belaying top and bottom belaying. 

I haven't heard anything regarding the ease of left handed belaying with it though (as the setup for lead belaying is setup for a right hand holding the device. Any lefties use the vergo?

Fail Falling wrote:

Yup. It suffered from the issues with the recall when it first dropped and people's issues with the cinch so it's been an uphill battle in terms of public perception. But yes, It is FAR superior to any other assisted braking belay device i've use for paying out slack smoothly, quickly, and safely as well as general belaying top and bottom belaying. 

I haven't heard anything regarding the ease of left handed belaying with it though (as the setup for lead belaying is setup for a right hand holding the device. Any lefties use the vergo?

The revolutionary piece of this devices is that it sports a "straight through" rope path. So when it's open, it is truly open, making feeding slack through so smooth that it's like there's nothing even there. Im blow away by the engineering. It's amazing all around.

I used a cinch for a long time, then switched to a vergo.

I have switched back to a grigri.

Both the cinch and vergo feed more smoothly than the grigri and feeding out rope to the side rather than up is easier on the shoulder.

But I had a couple of episodes where my climber fell 10 feet further than expected.

I think it's because my instinctive reaction to a fall is to bring my brake hand back to my hip.

This puts the rope directly in line with the slot on the vergo which then provides essentially no friction.

If your climber is away from obstacles and you are wearing gloves and won't burn your hand, then this may be OK.

But a little too sketch for me.

YMMV

I'd be very interested in reading your review RRR, although Mark Dixon's experience is quite concerning. 

I've always suspected that the claims of someone being mysteriously dropped by a Cinch (now a Vergo?) are most likely operator error. Although I wasn't there, I have doubts. I have used those devices for approximately ten years with no surprises.

RRR wrote:

The revolutionary piece of this devices is that it sports a "straight through" rope path. So when it's open, it is truly open, making feeding slack through so smooth that it's like there's nothing even there. Im blow away by the engineering. It's amazing all around.

Conversely, when the cam doesn't engage, you are very fucked as it has no braking power what-so-ever.

Anyways, you are about 13 years late to the discussion (since the release of the original Cinch).

Make a video on proper use, I have someone I am mentoring who could benefit from it. I have never used one, but am interested. 

FrankPS wrote:

I've always suspected that the claims of someone being mysteriously dropped by a Cinch (now a Vergo?) are most likely operator error. Although I wasn't there, I have doubts. I have used those devices for approximately ten years with no surprises.

It's certainly possible, I'm far from perfect. I don't usually video myself belaying, so there's no evidence either way.

My partners fall a lot. 

I don't think I can overcome my instinct to brake by moving my hand towards my hip, so I don't think I can safely use either a cinch or a vergo.

Again, YMMV

Mark E Dixon wrote:

I used a cinch for a long time, then switched to a vergo.

I have switched back to a grigri.

Both the cinch and vergo feed more smoothly than the grigri and feeding out rope to the side rather than up is easier on the shoulder.

But I had a couple of episodes where my climber fell 10 feet further than expected.

I think it's because my instinctive reaction to a fall is to bring my brake hand back to my hip.

This puts the rope directly in line with the slot on the vergo which then provides essentially no friction.

If your climber is away from obstacles and you are wearing gloves and won't burn your hand, then this may be OK.

But a little too sketch for me.

YMMV

Did you set the device upside down as instructed (doing this will show the "left" text with arrow on the device, which you do for lead belaying but not for tr belaying.)? 

When doing this, the rope to your side will not feed inappropriately. I've caught many lead falls with this device and always lock the rope to my hip as normal. Have never had any slip happen. 

Newt Riverman wrote:

Make a video on proper use, I have someone I am mentoring who could benefit from it. I have never used one, but am interested. 

There are a couple of videos on Trango's website.

Fail Falling wrote:

Did you set the device upside down as instructed (doing this will show the "left" text with arrow on the device, which you do for lead belaying but not for tr beksykng.)? 

When doing this, the rope to your side will not feed inappropriately. I've caught many lead falls with this device and always lock the rope to my hip as normal. Have never had any slip happen. 

I set it up as described in the instructions- rope feeds out to the left, thumb and finger pinch more or less at the indicated spots.

Iirc, the device is oriented vertically when you clip into the biner on your belay loop, then turn it to the left to be oriented horizontally.

It's been a year or so, so I may not be remembering all the details of my usage.

For those trying the device, a tip- put the rope bag on your right, makes feeding much easier.

FrankPS wrote:

I've always suspected that the claims of someone being mysteriously dropped by a Cinch (now a Vergo?) are most likely operator error. Although I wasn't there, I have doubts. I have used those devices for approximately ten years with no surprises.

Sure, except the well documented "operator error" on the cinch is not noticing that the pin has worn making the device gradually (then suddenly) less effective. Not worth the risk, especially since your partner pays.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

I set it up as described in the instructions- rope feeds out to the left, thumb and finger pinch more or less at the indicated spots.

Iirc, the device is oriented vertically when you clip into the biner on your belay loop, then turn it to the left to be oriented horizontally.

It's been a year or so, so I may not be remembering all the details of my usage.

For those trying the device, a tip- put the rope bag on your right, makes feeding much easier.

Sounds like you had it setup wrong to me. You said "turn it to the left". You should need to turn it clockwise (right). If it was "upside down" (compared to the GG) like the way they want it to be, with the climber side going towards the ground, not up towards the climber, the you likely would not have had the issue you had.

Mark - something is not right the way you attempted to use Vergo - the part where you mention bringing your brake hand to the hip makes no sense. I am righthanded, when I belay with Vergo, my right hand is around the devices - thumb on the thumb plate, index finger on the other side, remaining fingers loosely wrapped around brake side. Rope is running from rope bag on the right, to the climbers side on the left. When device is setup for belaying, it is oriented vertically, climbers end at the bottom, left arrow on the case pointed to the left. 

When I give slack, I pull climber's side to my left hip/down. When climber falls, rope tension pulls belay device out of the right hand, right hand is still holding the rope. If you take up slack and load device, it locks immediately. 

Take a look at the official video - https://youtu.be/QITpvF9SIGs?t=53 . If video does not load correctly, go to second 53.

I watched the video and that's exactly how I remember using it.

Maybe those unexpectedly long falls were all due to user error- there's no way to know for sure.

But I used a grigri for many years without any such episodes.

IIRC, the first time my climber fell an extra 10 feet I was using a cinch. And a skinny rope. 

I figured this combo was the explanation and switched to a vergo, which has slightly more friction.

When it happened again and I felt confident that I had been using the device properly, I sold them all and switched back to a grigri.

I loved both the cinch and the vergo. They feed out rope so, so smoothly. Especially the cinch.

(Although tbh, the vergo isn't quite as good as a grigri at going from full lock off to paying out rope, making serious dog sessions a little more awkward.)

I think I'll be sorry confessing to these events.

But I didn't feel right just letting folks praise the devices without offering my own experience.

If you want to write off my episodes as user error, then you may be right. 

That's what I thought during the original cinch controversy. 

Make your own decision. But at least consider wearing gloves.

I don’t like how the Vergo trains the belayer to fully grip the device with the right hand.   Seems to me like that is a dangerous habit to establish, especially when/if the belayer were to then use a different belay device.

I’m also of the mindset that a belay device shouldn’t be measured on how easy it is to pay out slack.  The primary objective should be functionality in assisting the catch and mechanical (or not) integrity.   I never quite understood when people complained about the difficulty of giving slack.  

There’s a reason that the Grigri is the industry standard.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

I think I'll be sorry confessing to these events.

But I didn't feel right just letting folks praise the devices without offering my own experience.

Mark, you shouldn't be. You don't hear cinch/vergo accidents of plp decking from far off the route (the death at the red was from maybe 25ft), only mysterious extra drop before the device locks. FWIW, this has happened to me once each as the climber & the belayer.

To me, the instruction to mount the vergo upside down is clear admission it doesn't have enough inherent friction and needs external side way rope friction from the belay loop twist. Except, belay loops are very thin on newer harnesses and can twist much more easily. That's not to mention the (however unlikely) scenario of falling backwards when belaying or factor 2 fall on a multi-pitch (making the rope path orient as if the device is mounted normally).

I hope those who decide to use one never have it fail but your PSA on its danger is very much warranted.

The last 3 posts should be read very carefully, particularly by the OP.

The original method of using the Cinch was challenged by the DAV due to the unexplained failures but the then owner of Trango refused to change the instructions (because the company would then be liable for any accidents) but immediately the company was sold  the upside-down method was introduced.

At that time I was commisioned to investigate it's braking charecteristics in relation to a similar proposed device. We ran about 200 drop tests on the Cinch up to 30m drops and did some high-speed videos of what happens internally to make sense of what happens.

The drop testing told us that in slow-speed falls ( short drops) the device gave the hardest stop of any device we ever tested but in longer falls it's performance dropped dramatically whereas the GriGri is the opposite.

The reason lies in an effect called frictional hysterises, when the fibres of the rope are pressed together rub against each other and before they start to move they resist this for a brief period (this is the hysterises) and the rope resists being squashed, this produces a noticeable bulge in the rope as it goes into the compression point.

Because of the cam design of the GriGri this bulge occurs on top of the cam and actually forces it closed and the cam design (by design or luck) is such that the braking force remains consistant. In the Cinch/Vergo design this bulge in the rope resists the cam in pinching the rope and the faster the rope travels through the device the greater the effect.

Thanks for sharing your all's experience, and testing. I feel like Jim's input is interesting, but considering I single pitch sport climb with the Vergo exclusively, I have the ability to give a good dynamic catch always, so a lot less concerned about it grabbing too quickly. Good to know about these properties though so I never bring it on a multi pitch where I'm unable to give a proper dynamic catch.

FWIW, my partner dropped me an extra 8ft or so with the GriGri a few weeks ago. User error for sure. He somehow let his left hand slip down the rope, defeating the cam momentarily. I wasn't very happy with him, and don't think it'll happen again. So, this type of thing can happen on practically any device. 

@reboot

The "death in the red" you speak of had nothing to do with a device error I assume? Hoping you would clarify that statement so it's not confused with a device failing. Curious when this happened and what the details were. Only deaths I know of were all knots not being finished. RIP.

As far as usage goes, you can override the cam when someone pulls back on by, ironically, moving your left hand down the rope to defeat the cam, or just use the lever to lower them back on,which is what I do with a GriGri 100% of the time.

I'd say this device is for those with experience. Definitely wouldn't bring out master gumby and hand this to them like I would a GriGri. I do personally feel the steep learning curve is well worth the benefits.

If I ever have any issues at all, ill come back to report. Until then, this has replaced my GriGri for 95% of what I use an ABD for.

The hard catch wasn't what we were investigating, it was the large number of unexplained failures to control the rope by experienced belayers predominantly on single- pitch routes.