How tight are your Trad shoes?

After break in are your toes curled? Flat? Toes just touching the ends? Can you wiggle your toes within the shoe a little? 

I'm coming from mythos where my toes are jammed flat in the end but tensioned by ultra soft rubber. I got a pair of BD aspects that I'm slightly knuckled in and the rubber is so hard it kills my toes. Half a size up and I touch the ends with my toes but I can move my toes a little without moving the shoe. Edging still seems great and all day comfortable. I've got a pair of grandstones that I'm slightly knuckled in but the rubber is soft and doesn't hurt much, half a size up I can wiggle my toes just barely. 

I'm leading 5.7-5.9, lots of multipitch. I lead the odd "fits me" 5.10 here and there. I follow and TR 11's on occasion. 

Thought this could be useful discussion for many folks. 

I think toes curled in your trad shoes is a poor choice, especially for the grades you mentioned. I wear the same pair of TC pros for almost everything and my toes are flat, but touching the end of the shoe. A comfortable fit. I’ve worn tighter shoes and had my toes punished while crack climbing.

Shelton, how did your TC pro's start out? How much break-in? Street shoe size vs TC pro size? It's helpful to know these things, TC pro's are likely in my future at some point or another. I am very much leaning towards your line of logic but I'm sure there are many opinions. 

I don't climb hard, so take this with a grain of salt.

I don't want my toes curled, ever. I don't believe new shoes should be uncomfortable, with the idea that they will break in or stretch.

Toes flat, just touching the end or not quite. If my feet are hurting when I'm wearing climbing shoes, it defeats the concept of "fun."

I also don't want to sacrifice comfort for performance. I embrace my mediocrity!

FrankPS wrote:

I don't want my toes curled, ever. I don't believe new shoes should be uncomfortable, with the idea that they will break in or stretch.

I guess this is the part I'm struggling with. I've been wearing, and subsequently stretching, tight La Sportiva shoes for years. That leads me to the, potentially false, belief that any shoe is going to stretch. I'm sure this varies with the brand/model of shoes. I'm finding it hard to commit to any climbing shoe that is comfortable out of the box. I started this thread to figure out if I'm just stuck in an old way of thinking or not. 

The half size larger pair of my Aspects and Grandstones fit perfectly right now, out of the box, but will they stay that way? The aspects are stiff, lined, and known for minimal stretch - decision made I'll keep the bigger ones. The Grandstones... soft enough rubber that the smaller pair is comfortable with a slight toe curl. The larger pair is mega comfortable and my toes are flat just touching the ends (perfect). Some users say they stretch others say they don't... 

A new shoe that isn't tight on the toes isn't going to stretch much, lengthwise, if at all. The shoe will get softer, more pliable as it gets worn, but they won't stretch lengthwise, if your toes and heel aren't pushing on the ends of the shoe.

My  $.02

Unless you are edging really hard, shoes dont need to be really tight. 

The grades you are climbing don't really need hard edging. 

I don't climb much above 5.11 so take my advice FWIW but I want my shoes to be comfy straight out of the box. If I am concerned about putting pressure on my toes because it hurts too much, then I am not going to climb at my best. I have never whipped off of a climb and thought, "If my shoes were tighter/smaller, I would've had that." 

I wear a size 8 street shoe, which is supposed to be euro 40.5. For most easier sport and trad cragging up to three pitches or so I wear LS Tarantulaces that are size 38. I'll usually crack my heel out of them or take them off at a belay but it's not 100% necessary. I had bought a pair of LS Nagos for trad multi-pitch a few years back that are size 39, and honestly they are too big to feel precise on small stuff. Last time I wore them on a true slab pitch I was not confident. I only really wear them now for long, truly easy multi-pitch, or with socks. I've never had a pair of shoes where the rubber at the toe tip actually began to wear upward but these did, which tells me my toes aren't filling them out enough. By upward I mean that you can look at the toe from straight above and instead of seeing only the rand, you actually see the tip of the sole and the line where the sole meets the rand. The Tarantulaces held up well to a resole, and got a little more comfy. I think next time I will try 38.5 Tarantulaces. They are great all around shoes.

Sportiva says "We recommend you fit your trad shoes one to two sizes under your street shoe size." So I'm doing 2.5 below right now with the Tarantulaces. 1.5 with the Nagos wasn't cutting it for me.

Scotty D, at the level you are talking about 5.7-5.9 with some 5.10 (which is the only level I'm doing currently!), my broken-in Mythos are not painful to stand in but feel much better when in motion climbing, are comfortable enough to keep on for up to 8 pitches, and if I had to, I could walk down a gully a couple of hundred feet back to the base, and I'd be unhappy but I wouldn't be screaming.

TC Pros.  Toes totally flat but touching at the tips.  They didn't stretch or loosen up on me.  Would recommend.

TC pros didn't stretch for you?  Wow.  I get a ton of stretch out of TC pros.   The pair that originally was ok at edging and I had to remove every couple pitches I could probably walk a couple miles in now.   

This is one of those things it's hard to give recommendations online.  Pain is bad obviously but I can personally say my comfortable flat TC pros were absolutely hindering my performance.  Snug katanas have made edging so so much easier + excel at the thin .5-75 sized cracks I would have trouble with in the boxier TCs.  

Kind of trial and error + depends on the climber and area.  I think a couple shoes make sense. A snug performance pair for sport/hard trad and a comfy pair for alpine/long multi. 

Scott D wrote:

Shelton, how did your TC pro's start out? How much break-in? Street shoe size vs TC pro size? It's helpful to know these things, TC pro's are likely in my future at some point or another. I am very much leaning towards your line of logic but I'm sure there are many opinions. 

I wear a size 45 TC and they are pain free out of the box, but snug. I have done nearly all my hardest “trad” and sport leads in this shoe. They get more comfortable with time and do get a tiny bit more sloppy but it only seems to matter for me on extreme, less than vert dime edging. It can also be nice, as another user mentioned, to have a shoe with a thinner toe profile for certain sized cracks, especially on very clean splitters (think Indian Creek). I also don’t climb much extremely overhung rock (think RRG).

For reference I typically wear a size 12 street shoe, sometime 12.5. My sportiva TX4s are 45.5 and are a “performance fit”, but I will probably try my next pair in size 46 since I seen to value comfort more as time goes on.

Also, I’ve had people look at my feet and tell me they can’t believe they’re looking at climber feet. So I must be doing something right

:)

For some reason I always thought tight shoes were a requirement for climbing. My feet always hurt through multipitch days, so after a few years i said fuck it, and bought size 43 TC pros. I wear size 42.5 sportiva approach shoes, and 42 sport shoes. 

I don't know how I wore smaller shoes in the past, especially on longer routes or slightly warmer days where your feet swell up. 

Tim Opsahl wrote:

I don't know how I wore smaller shoes in the past, especially on longer routes or slightly warmer days where your feet swell up. 

My main strategy for this is to just have size 48 feet, so as to force myself to cram them into whatever would be the largest available shoe.

I size my multi-pitch shoes as big possible, just before they get wobbly.  I also climb with socks.  My toes are perfectly flat with a tiny bit of wiggle room at rest, that makes them just snug after a long approach or after a few pitches.  I lose a bit in single pitch performance, but a bigger shoe gives you better performance on a multi-pitch since you can't possibly have good footwork when placing your toes on anything makes you wince.

greggrylls wrote:

TC pros didn't stretch for you?  Wow.  I get a ton of stretch out of TC pros.   The pair that originally was ok at edging and I had to remove every couple pitches I could probably walk a couple miles in now.   

This is one of those things it's hard to give recommendations online.  Pain is bad obviously but I can personally say my comfortable flat TC pros were absolutely hindering my performance.  Snug katanas have made edging so so much easier + excel at the thin .5-75 sized cracks I would have trouble with in the boxier TCs.  

Kind of trial and error + depends on the climber and area.  I think a couple shoes make sense. A snug performance pair for sport/hard trad and a comfy pair for alpine/long multi. 

How do you find the Katana sizing compared to TC pros? I love my size 43.5 TCs but wouldn't mind trying the Katanas.

Had the same experience with TC Pros stretching, mine started out just right then stretched a little more than I like for hard edging.  Still fine for what I climb though, chill multis and weird offwidth stuff in Voo!  Gotta love the stiffness and ankle protection.

I have a few different other shoes (loose moccs, tighter moccs, old Vapors) and typically don't fit anything crazy tight, my tightest shoes have just a little toe curl.  I've only felt undershoed on a few super edgy sport climbs, honestly.

Garry Reiss wrote:

How do you find the Katana sizing compared to TC pros? I love my size 43.5 TCs but wouldn't mind trying the Katanas.

Pretty sure Katanas are made on the same last as TC’s. They should fit similarly. Unfortunately neither fit my feet well. But the Butora Alturas are really awesome. And I wear moccs for thin stuff and slab. I personally prefer my shoes a little bit tighter. I just pop them off at belays and it works well

Garry Reiss wrote:

How do you find the Katana sizing compared to TC pros? I love my size 43.5 TCs but wouldn't mind trying the Katanas.

I believe I wear the same size.  I had regular to wide feet, typically a Scarpa guy and katanas work well for me.  My buddy has narrow feet and they work for him as well.  If you're looking for edging/thin crack performance Katanas make TC pros feel outdated.  Seriously.

Thanks guys, I'll look into those.

To answer the op's question, I buy shoes that fit uniformly and comfortably snug with my big toe touching. Of late, TC pros for trad and Scarpa Arpias for sport. Both fit me well. It's all about the fit!