Belay Parkas are Confusing

I am looking to get a belay parka for ice climbing and some technical mountaineering but there are so many options that I am just confused. So I made a list of my options and sorted them into the 'cheaper' and super expensive categories. Again I will just be using this jacket for belaying and chilling at basecamp when it's cold. Yeah I know there are a lot down there but I have a lot of options.

I want a jacket than can pack down small enough to fit in a pack when climbing. I feel like the jackets that are <500g won't be warm enough but I'm not sure about that. One day I would like to go to Patagonia or Pakistan and do an epic mixed climb there so which jackets would work for that? Are the +$800 jackets worth the cost? All but one of these jackets are down so should I not consider it? Do I want a 2 way zipper?

I would like to hear what everyone's thoughts are on these jackets below (now with the amount of down fill if found):

Sub $600 ('cheaper'):

• Arc'teryx Cerium SV, $575, 850-fill >130 but <225g/m², 415g
• TNF Summit L6 Belay Parka, $550, 800-fill, 780g
• BD Vision Down, $450, 800-fill, 580g
• Rab Positron Pro, $425, 800-fill with 300g in it, 760g
• Patagonia Fitz Roy, $399, 800-fill, 485g
• OR Super Alpine Parka, $399, 800-fill, 825g
• Rab Neutrino Pro, $375, 800-fill with 230g in it, 605g

+$800 (super expensive):

• Arc'teryx Firebee AR Parka, $949, 850-fill with 225g/m², 680g
• Arc'teryx Ceres SV Parka, $925, 850-fill, with 240g/m², 880g
• Patagonia Grade VII Parka, $899, 800-fill, 743g
• Arc'teryx Dually Belay Parka, $699, ThermaTek 2.7 oz with 92g/m², 705g

I'll strike options off the list as people help me narrow down my options. Thanks!

Have had this jacket a few years - warm, light, packs down, and cheap enough that you don't feel bad when you decide you're not that into ice climbing anyway.

https://www.ems.com/ems-mens-feather-pack-hooded-jacket/34299200120.html

https://www.marmot.com/men/jackets-and-vests/insulated-and-down/mens-mt.-tyndall-hoody/AFS_889169611285.html

I have the marmot greenland baffle (no longer manufactured), which seems to be the jacket before this one. It is toasty at 0F when not moving. I'm not one for needless suffering, which can be avoided for the extra 3-6oz of jacket. I'm also not a weight weenie. Anyways, I use the marmot for winter backpacking and climbing in the NH and VT. Works for me. I expect this jacket would get me up Denali too.

My personal opinion is that if you are buying with highly committing alpine climbs in mind, you should probably spend the money on whatever would be best for those alpine climbs.  If you are just cragging and can bail to the car, then it doesn't matter as much.

I bought a Dually 10 years ago and have never wanted for another winter belay parka.   This is one of the few jackets I have bought for full MSRP and I have no regrets.  I will note that the insulation has packed out, so is noticeably less warm than it was originally.  It also takes up a lot of space in a pack (does not compress as much as down or coreloft), so if you want to climb with a small pack, that could be an issue.  Otherwise, the features of this jacket seem ideal to me for committing alpine climbs, below 6,000m.  

Must have features for me are:

- internal drop pockets for drying gloves and socks

- does not absorb water and stays warm when wet

- breathable fabric that allows water vapor to escape

Nice to have features for me:

- Double zipper that allows access to belay loop, without lifting up the jacket.  

The Dually has all of these features and is the gold standard that I would compare any other belay parka to.  

BD vision has served me well.  Compressible and warm, but not super warm like below zero Antarctica trip warm.  But, ice climbing in Canada, and the US, day routes on trips to the Alps, it’s just fine.

Bryce,

This is a long reply, sorry about that, hopefully it helps.

It would be really helpful if you could provide some more information about how you're going to use your jacket.  "Technical mountaineering," "belaying," and "base camp" could mean a whole range of different things, and might require many different jackets.

Note that on your list of jackets, you listed the down fill power, but not the amount of down fill.  The amount of down fill is probably the single best indicator of warmth of a jacket, so that will help you compare different options.

Here's some attempts to answer your specific questions:

I feel like the jackets that are <500g won't be warm enough

People wear the Patagonia Fitz Roy on the Cassin Ridge on Denali, so a jacket of this weight can be quite warm.  However, it depends on a lot of things.

One day I would like to go to Patagonia or Pakistan and do an epic mixed climb there so which jackets would work for that?

Hard to say!  An "epic mixed climb" in Patagonia or Pakistan could mean a lot of things, so it's really impossible to know with details of the altitude, season, aspect, etc.  Be careful about buying a jacket for your use now that will also work for some future mystery expedition. 

Are the +$800 jackets worth the cost? 

In my opinion (others will disagree), they are definitely not worth the cost for your situation  If you are dialed in, and you know exactly what you want, and you're going on some huge important climb, it could be, maybe.  For a first belay jacket, for general use, no way.

All but one of these jackets are down so should I not consider it? 

Synthetic vs. down is a topic of heated debate, but I think that for a warm belay jacket down is fine.  Others will disagree.  It can also depend on usage, climate, trip type, etc.

All of that being said, I would suggest that for a general-use belay parka, a down jacket with 180-250g of down fill is a really good and useful size.  From your list this would be something like the Patagonia Fitz Roy, BD Vision, OR Alpine, or the Rab Neutrino Pro.  You could also buy a synthetic jacket in a similar warmth range, such as the Patagonia DAS Parka or the BD Stance/Belay parka.  Other jackets that might work are the MH Phantom and Nilas, Mont-Bell Frost Line, Mountain Equipment Vega, and many others.

Also, you can very often find these jackets or similar ones on sale.  For example:

https://www.campsaver.com/rab-positron-pro-jacket-mens.html

https://www.marmot.com/men/jackets-and-vests/insulated-and-down/mens-guides-down-hoody/AFS_889169664663.html

Big Red wrote:

Have had this jacket a few years - warm, light, packs down, and cheap enough that you don't feel bad when you decide you're not that into ice climbing anyway.

https://www.ems.com/ems-mens-feather-pack-hooded-jacket/34299200120.html

This is a nice jacket (my wife has one) but it's a totally different category of jacket and doesn't at all belong on a list of belay parkas.

Karl Henize wrote:

I bought a Dually 10 years ago and have never wanted for another winter belay parka.   This is one of the few jackets I have bought for full MSRP and I have no regrets.  

Agreed. I have two, just in case Arc stops making it. If my house burned down today I would buy two more at full price tomorrow. One of my favorite pieces of gear. 

OP if you decide you want down the best down parka on your list by far is the Grade VII if you want to buy once/cry once. They go on closeout every Spring for half price if you can wait. 

I think the latest Mountain Hardwear Phantom is good for the money if you want to test the waters. It's not as warm, but it ticks the basic requirements (box baffles, good butt coverage, big hand and drop pockets, 2-way zip) and should get you started ice cragging around New England. 

If you have an American Alpine club membership this Outdoor Research jacket is pretty affordable through ExpertVoice. It comes to like $208.00 with the discount.

Mammut is also included with ExpertVoice through American Alpine Club. I’m not sure if this jacket meets your requirements though.

https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/mens-super-alpine-down-parka-277570?cat=42,10,4,402

Also last time I called the Patagonia Outlet in Reno they had some Grade 7s pretty cheap. Like under $350 for the jacket. Not sure if those fit your requirements either.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

It would be really helpful if you could provide some more information about how you're going to use your jacket.  "Technical mountaineering," "belaying," and "base camp" could mean a whole range of different things, and might require many different jackets.

Basically I want a jacket that I can wear when I'm not moving and it's -15C to -20C without getting frozen. But it also has to pack down small enough to as to not take up a large amount of space in my pack while climbing or on an approach.

Note that on your list of jackets, you listed the down fill power, but not the amount of down fill.  The amount of down fill is probably the single best indicator of warmth of a jacket, so that will help you compare different options.

I'll try and find that info for the jackets.

People wear the Patagonia Fitz Roy on the Cassin Ridge on Denali, so a jacket of this weight can be quite warm.  However, it depends on a lot of things.

Hard to say!  An "epic mixed climb" in Patagonia or Pakistan could mean a lot of things, so it's really impossible to know with details of the altitude, season, aspect, etc.  Be careful about buying a jacket for your use now that will also work for some future mystery expedition. 

Knowing what people use for Denali is a good gauge on how well that jacket preforms. Yeah so I want to climb mountains such as Cerro Torre and the Trango Towers and what you say makes sense with the weather and all those other factors that change what kind of jacket I need and spending the money if I never do it. I'm definitely not ready to buy one of these jackets this season but I need help figuring out what I need.

All of that being said, I would suggest that for a general-use belay parka, a down jacket with 180-250g of down fill is a really good and useful size.  From your list this would be something like the Patagonia Fitz Roy, BD Vision, OR Alpine, or the Rab Neutrino Pro.  You could also buy a synthetic jacket in a similar warmth range, such as the Patagonia DAS Parka or the BD Stance/Belay parka.  Other jackets that might work are the MH Phantom and Nilas, Mont-Bell Frost Line, Mountain Equipment Vega, and many others.

Okay it's nice to know how much down should be in the jackets. I'm not a huge fan of MH their stuff doesn't fit me too well but I'll check them out.  Thanks for the help! 

A word of caution: the latest Fitz Roy "Hoody" does not look comparable to last year's Fitz Roy "Parka" to me. Looks sewn thru and weighing several ounces less I doubt it has the same amount of down fill. Looks like no 2-way zip either. 

Bryce Dahlgren wrote:

I'll try and find that info for the jackets.

A few that I happen to have written down (down fill in grams):

• MH Phantom Hoody 180 (Pre-2020?)
• Patagonia Fitz Roy (Men's) 180 (2016 Parka)
• OR Alpine 182 (discontinued?)
• Mont Bell Frost Line 200 (discontinued?) 
• MH Nilas Hoody 215
• FF Helios 221
• Rab Neutrino Pro 230
• ME Vega 235
• OR Super Alpine 250
• Mont Bell Permafrost Parka 270
• MHW Kelvinator Hoody 271
• ME Lightline 296
• Rab Positron Pro 300

Note that these don't necessarily have the same fill power, or the same construction, so this isn't the only factor in determining warmth, but it is helpful.

Latest Phantom Parka is 198g.

Last year's men's Fitz parka was ~230g I believe. 

Current Grade VII is 336g

Montbell discontinued the Frostline sadly. That was a good jacket for the money. Bit short. 

Older.. but the concepts remain the same.

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_belay_jacket

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/belay-jackets-revisited

Let's keep in mind that OP is a newer climber getting starting with ice climbing, he probably doesn't need a $700-$900 parka.  Any on-sale model of any of the midweight belay parkas would be fine, or something like the $250 BD Belay Parka.  Yes, these are not the Ferrari-level jacket that some $800 piece from Arcteryx is, but not everyone needs a Ferrari.

Bryce, you would probably be well served to go to a store that has a variety of these types of jackets in stock, so that you can try them on, see how they pack up, etc.  I do not know where that would be in your area, perhaps somewhere like Rock and Snow in New Paltz or one of the stores in N. Conway?

Adding one to the list for consideration, the NW Alpine belay jacket comes in at 233g of synthetic fill. I tend to prefer synthetic for most outings, but I don't think there's a *wrong* answer here.

It's burly in it's overall construction, so a bit heavier than other's in it's class but I don't feel the need to be delicate with it. It's also a good deal warmer than the fill weight would lead you to believe, I think the hype behind the metalized liner is well founded.

It's priced competitively for a USA made product, out of stock at the moment but get in touch and they'll let you know when you'll see them restocked.

https://www.nwalpine.com/collections/mens/products/belay-jacket

FYI I do work at REI so I get good discounts on the outdoor brands that we sell which helps when making purchases like this

I use the Montane Alpine 850 for northeast ice. 350+ grams of 850-fill, hydrophobic goose down weighing in at 725 grams in my men's large.  It's ridiculously warm and packable.  I bought mine on sale from the U.K. here and they were great to deal with - free shipping to the U.S.  Here's my review from last year.

If you think belay parkas are confusing wait til you shop for a rappel parka.

That said most of those are over kill for a belay parka. 

If you want something warm enough at those temps (0F/ -18C) and that compresses small,  down is the only option, so that answers that question. Synthetic will not compress small, and if you try repeatedly, it will very quickly ruin it by losing most loft.

Along the Same lines, avoid all the ones with multiple layers of fabric on top of each other. That is the downfall of many big brand  jackets listed above: extra layers of fabric for pockets, or aesthetice,  or who knows why. That adds weight, makes it larger to pack, yet no warmer.

And 800fp would be ok, but 900fp would be a lot better for this use case.

Start by looking at down fill, at least 9oz  (250g) of 800FP. Then look at total weight. You should be above 40% of total weight in down.

It won’t be cheap.

Grade VII is probably the best, but expensive.

http://maxneale.blogspot.com/2018/11/patagonia-grade-vii-best-down-parka-review.html

edit: I see they dropped down to 800fp. It was much higher when first released.

I use a synthetic DAS parka as a belay jacket for ice climbing. I take care not to stuff it tightly in my fairly large pack(put it on top and don’t use a compression stuff sack). I try not to wear it to often for casual things. This is great because your clothes are often wet after iceclimbing a pitch,and  you certainly are sweating a bit, so even in dry weather, the belay jacket gets wet.

For winter camping, multi pitch climbs, ski touring etc, where weight and packed volume matters I use a 850fp GooseFeet down parka. This is great beacuse it is equal warmth at half the weight and 1/3 the size, and it will last for a long time.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Let's keep in mind that OP is a newer climber getting starting with ice climbing, he probably doesn't need a $700-$900 parka.  Any on-sale model of any of the midweight belay parkas would be fine, or something like the $250 BD Belay Parka.  Yes, these are not the Ferrari-level jacket that some $800 piece from Arcteryx is, but not everyone needs a Ferrari.

New climber or old climber, hardly influences what price of jacket you want to buy. And if you are buying a down jacket, it will last you a super long time, so rather than buying a $400 jacket now, and then finding out you really wanted the $800 jacket 3 years from now, save money and waste by buying the right one right away.

That said, I totally agree that for many cases, less expensive jackets are a great option.

AlpineIce wrote:

I use the Montane Alpine 850 for northeast ice. 350+ grams of 850-fill, hydrophobic goose down weighing in at 725 grams in my men's large.  It's ridiculously warm and packable.  I bought mine on sale from the U.K. here and they were great to deal with - free shipping to the U.S.  Here's my review from last year.

That seems like it might be about the best option around. Box baffle torso is much warmer than sewn through at these temps. Fabric a good balance between lightweight and tough.
As long as the amount of excess fabric is limited, it seems awesome. It shows the problem with these big brands: they want to add Reuters to appeal to mass market consumers.

If it’s this ridiculously cold, I won’t be standing around with bare hands, so why add fleece lining to the hand warmer pockets? Adds weight, catches fibers and grit.