The wind river range is covered in Poop

This past season, I saw the wind river range incredibly busy with backpackers, climbers and hikers. While hiking to Deep Lake, my partner and I found numerous piles of poop and toilet paper, barely even buried, with no attempt to hide it. On a later trip, in the Cirque of the Towers I found just as much (slightly more buried) around the campsites and hidden under rocks up by Cirque lake below the Wolf’s Head. 

The issue is there is too much poop in the Wind River Range. The Bridger-Teton Wilderness area does not require packing out poop in a wag bag; Mountain Project’s pages for the Winds and sub-areas do not mention poop or wag bags at all; The Summitpost page linked to in the mountain project page, has no mention either. The Steve Betchel guidebook is the only place that states it is not acceptable to leave you poop behind (and few climbers actually own this guidebook). I personally rarely see wag bags on the outside of packs as people hike out.

With the use that the Wind's have seen, especially last year, I think it is time we as climbers do a better job of packing out our own waste and educating other to do the same. My first suggestion and step is to submit an edit/statement to the cirque, deep lake and wind river pages here on mountain project. The statement is at the end of this post, if anyone feels I have forgotten something or it needs editing, feel free to post it below. I am working on submitting the statement to summit post, as well.

The reason for this Forum topic is to ask; What do we, as the climbing community, think the next step should be and how to follow through? I highly doubt that we will be able to convince the USFS to start requiring people to use wag bags- without then getting the Access Fund and American Alpine Club involved, at least. But getting them involved could very well be a good idea. I do think It would be pretty easy to convince the Forest Service to hang a sign at the trailhead saying wag bags are highly encouraged. The only problem, is that people who don't know before driving to the trail heads and did not bring a wag bag, aren't going to drive to lander to buy some.

A wag bag system that I know works well is in the Lone peak Cirque in SLC. Below the Wilderness Area is a small box with wag bags available for folks who forgot them. Lone Peak is a MUCH smaller area and less remote, and I don’t know if  it would work for the winds, but it might with some clever thinking- like a literal wag bag vending machine. If you have any other ideas or input- that is why this post is here!

I think that backpackers are the next largest user of the winds. So I will probably reach out to backpacking and hiking websites to spread the word there, but I spend most of my time here- does anyone know of good sites to spread the word to backpackers?

The Statement I'm going to submit to be included on the mountain project pages:

Pooping in the Winds: Please Pack Out Your Poop

Every climber, backpacker, and hiker is expected to use a wag bag and pack out your poop. Though it often feels remote, the Winds is visited by more and more people each year- we are loving the area to death. It is not acceptable to bury you poop 6 inches deep or 6 feet deep, with or without toilet paper, whether you are camping for one day or one week. Please bring multiple wag bags any time you are hiking into the Winds. 

Lonesome Lake, in the Cirque of the towers, has been declared unfit to drink from, even when filtered or treated because of fecal contamination. Keep other lakes in the Winds from this same contamination by PACKING OUT YOUR POOP. 

Why isn't burying it adequate (but carrying out the paper)?

Edit: This is the policy for all of the Sierra, except for the most crowded area, the Whitney Zone. 

This is something I've actually thought about a lot since I'm a dog owner. I agree it's definitely not great to see poop all over the woods. It's unsightly, smelly, can contaminate water sources, and possibly transmit disease to wild animals. These are real issues. But I'm also wondering if WAG bags are the right solution, or are we actually creating more problems for the future?

If you take a step back and look at the big picture, just how much lasting impact does poop have on the environment? How long will it take for poop to biodegrade? I'm not trolling here, but I think we have a bigger problem with plastic waste. We already put too much stuff (packaging, bags, etc) in plastic, is it really better for the environment to put more stuff in plastic bags? Where will those WAG bags end up? Landfill? In the ocean?

Also, look at dog poop and poop bags. How many doggie bags are lining hiking trails these days? You would hope that as responsible dog owners pick up after their own dogs, they'd carry it out and throw it in the trash. But some just decide to leave it next to the trail. Maybe climbers are better than that, but I think it's inevitable that we will see wag bags on the side of trails if the use of wag bags become more popularized.

I don't know what the solution is. Maybe building solar powered pit toilets in high use/sensitive areas (campsites, near lakes)? That could be one option.

I get that its wilderness area but instead of fighting the inevitable build the damn toilet. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I get that its wilderness area but instead of fighting the inevitable build the damn toilet. 

That’s funny in WY it’s like pulling teeth to get toilets installed just look at the multi year Aspen Glade toilet struggle.

FrankPS wrote:

Why isn't burying it adequate (but carrying out the paper)?

Edit: This is the policy for all of the Sierra, except for the most crowded area, the Whitney Zone. 

I agree and don't.

Burying it isnt acceptable because in a high alpine enviroment, it does not break down easily. Since it doesn't break down easily, it then contaminates water sources, like lonesome lake. 

But i agree on the crowded area's; I am mostly talking about the most crowded areas like deep lake, the cirque of the towers and big sandy. Unfortunately at these high use areas, it is neither heavily encouraged nor required so i rarely see people use bags.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I get that its wilderness area but instead of fighting the inevitable build the damn toilet. 

Yeah, after going to the bugs two summers ago, I think this is an awsome idea. I happily paid $10 a day for my poop to literally be flown out by helicopter in 50 gallon drums. 

Vermont they would just close it to climbers, keep it open to hunters and fisherman on the premis that hunters and fishermen pay to play. still do nothing about the poop and litter that the redneck lot brings with them.. . 

garrett K wrote:

I agree and don't.

Burying it isnt acceptable because in a high alpine enviroment, it does not break down easily. Since it doesn't break down easily, it then contaminates water sources, like lonesome lake. 

But i agree on the crowded area's; I am mostly talking about the most crowded areas like deep lake, the cirque of the towers and big sandy. Unfortunately at these high use areas, it is neither heavily encouraged nor required so i rarely see people use bags.

The Forest Service and the Park Service require that you are at least 100 feet from the water when you go to the bathroom. And bury it 6 inches deep (difficult to do, sometimes).

I have no reason to believe this is inadequate and contaminates the water.  Apparently, they think these requirements are sufficient.

If they change the requirements, I would comply.

aikibujin wrote:

This is something I've actually thought about a lot since I'm a dog owner. I agree it's definitely not great to see poop all over the woods. It's unsightly, smelly, can contaminate water sources, and possibly transmit disease to wild animals. These are real issues. But I'm also wondering if WAG bags are the right solution, or are we actually creating more problems for the future?

If you take a step back and look at the big picture, just how much lasting impact does poop have on the environment? How long will it take for poop to biodegrade? I'm not trolling here, but I think we have a bigger problem with plastic waste. We already put too much stuff (packaging, bags, etc) in plastic, is it really better for the environment to put more stuff in plastic bags? Where will those WAG bags end up? Landfill? In the ocean?

Also, look at dog poop and poop bags. How many doggie bags are lining hiking trails these days? You would hope that as responsible dog owners pick up after their own dogs, they'd carry it out and throw it in the trash. But some just decide to leave it next to the trail. Maybe climbers are better than that, but I think it's inevitable that we will see wag bags on the side of trails if the use of wag bags become more popularized.

I don't know what the solution is. Maybe building solar powered pit toilets in high use/sensitive areas (campsites, near lakes)? That could be one option.

I think this is great point that is so rarely brought up. I've been using wag bags since moving back to the Front Range simply because of the sheer volume of traffic at the crags but damn it's a lot of plastic and I have to agree, I wonder if that's worse in the long run. My thought at this point is to switch to paper bags to be transported in a reusable container, or maybe just some sort of washable container. That's for cragging, though--not sure what the best solution is for the Winds, but it seems like there must be a similar environmentally-friendly in & out option out there. I have not been to the Winds (or another comparably high-traffic backpacking area) in a long time, so I haven't really thought about it.

I think if we could just get people to burn their TP that would be a good start. 

NickMartel wrote:

I think if we could just get people to burn their TP that would be a good start. 

Have you not noticed the massive wildfires that are occurring with increasing frequency?  Please don't burn paper. Especially in the areas under discussion - they are tinder boxes waiting for a single spark.

Yes folks, pretty sure the wind rivers in Wyoming would’ve been fine if all the greenies stayed in Colorado.  

Carolina wrote:

Yes folks, pretty sure the wind rivers in Wyoming would’ve been fine if all the greenies stayed in Colorado.  

TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Colorado would have been fine if people from all over the USA stayed in their home states for the past 30 yrs.

And the American continent would have been fine if the Europeans had just stayed in Europe.

Human migration happens naturally, both in the short-term (vacations) and the long term (relocation or immigration). Complaining about it is unhelpful and almost intentionally obtuse.

Using a wag bag is easy, relatively painless, and the best solution we have at the moment. A toilet might be wise but that is not an individual action. Increasing climber traffic is a problem everywhere - and where it isn’t, it soon will be if patterns continue. As enthusiast/power users it is our responsibility to set an example and act as stewards, especially when we know others aren’t.

Cheers.

People need to stop being so goddamn lazy and actually bury their shit, instead of putting a rock on top and calling it good.  Also burning to is a recipe for disaster.  Boise foothills had a grass fire because someone lit their tp.  Don't trust anyone to burn stuff.

Unfortunately, it's starting.

This has been happening for years. I've buried other users poop on numerous occasions, as have others in the area. The problem with burying is that most people don't dig deep enough, ergo animals and dogs dig it up and wah-la! Lonesome Lake was closed to camping years ago because it became a problem. Now, Island Lake, Seneca Lake, Big Sandy Lake, etc, are all affected because of increased use. The solution is education - most users of the Winds nowadays are new to backpacking, hence they don't know. But education is hard. Imagine confronting someone in the backcountry and telling them you should adequately bury your poo. Most will be standoff-ish at best.

The problem with the Forest Service is they won't act until they have to, i.e. it becomes such a problem that they're FORCED to do something. An immediate solution would be to install a poo bag station; but who's gonna pay for that?? I can't tell you how many people won't go back there with a physical map because it costs $13.95. Who's gonna shell out $10/ WAG bag, per day they're back there? Who's gonna do upkeep on the WAG bag station to ensure it stays working or doesn't get vandalized?

I totally agree that small steps are the way to go. Education is ultimately what will keep those areas nice for the future, but there's always going to be assholes who think the rules don't apply to them.

If the price of wag bags is an issue, people can carry a poop burrito kit for just a few cents and a few ounces. Big double layer of aluminum foil, folded into a small square for carrying, then unfolded into a big target for use. Wrap up the poop and used TP in the foil, double bag the poop burrito in two one-gallon Ziploc bags for safety. You can even reuse Ziplocs that you used for your food on a previous trip. Pack it out, throw it out.  If the inner Ziploc didn't leak, the outer Ziploc can be saved and reused - for poop, not food. Ew. 

Question. Is the Miguel's Pizza shitter a frequent visitor of the Wind Rivers?

L Kap wrote:

If the price of wag bags is an issue, people can carry a poop burrito kit for just a few cents and a few ounces. Big double layer of aluminum foil, folded into a small square for carrying, then unfolded into a big target for use. Wrap up the poop and used TP in the foil, double bag the poop burrito in two one-gallon Ziploc bags for safety. You can even reuse Ziplocs that you used for your food on a previous trip. Pack it out, throw it out.  If the inner Ziploc didn't leak, the outer Ziploc can be saved and reused - for poop, not food. Ew. 

+1^^^^

We've found that the empty plastic bags from cereal boxes work well in place of the aluminum foil, too--they rip and unfold pretty well. For those who like to reuse but are not on the paleo, keto, or atkins. Then stuff them like you said in an old ziploc or we also use various sorts of sealing bags that other food comes in, e.g., tortillas, shredded cheese, etc. Still a lot of plastic but at least it's not single use. I'd still like to transition to something fully and easily washable and reusable.