The up and down of working pitches on solo toprope/micro traxion/camp lift

With all my climbing partners out of action with Covid, and inspired by Mikey Schaefer talking about fix and follow, I decided to dial in my toprope solo setup. I had once or twice before used a shunt, or a grigri (which sucked) for this kind of climbing at single pitch crags.

I got a Camp lift last week, which I tried out yesterday at a local crag. Using a Grivel Clepsydra S carabiner and neck bungee for positioning, it was pretty reassuring and functional. FYI, for those interested, the Clepsydra S with its little fin and chunky gate(s) completely blocks crossloading on the Lift (and microtraxion), though you may not like the (dual) gate action. I'm persevering as it is way lighter than any alternatives I can see.

The route I was working on had short 3m boulder crux, which I spent over an hour and half going up and down. With the Lift, I could tilt and pinch the device in a certain way to drop down in short batman jerks, which was pretty cool, so I could repeat the same short sequence over and over.

I tried at one point to attach a grigri underneath the device to transition to a longer descent, but nothing good happened out of that idea, as both devices jammed together in a grim, immobile mess on my belay loop. I clipped into a bolt to unweight the Lift, which worked okay, and I'm aware some similar thing could be done with another ascender, above the lift (but what a drag..).

I had also brought a microtraxion, to (perhaps..) use as a backup secondary device, but I canned this idea right at the base, as it seemed to make it impossible to cinch up the rope tight by pulling up form underneath (before sagging on the rope). I could see how this wouldn't be such a big deal in fix and follow, with more rope weight.

Anyway, this all brought up some questions to me:

First, how are these folks working the cruxes on big routes going up and down? I know it's common to use a microtraxion on the captain, but is it possible/practical to transiently disengage the cam to drop down short sections? This sounds like a sphincter-tightening experience... If someone is using the microtraxion, how are they doing the up and down?

Second, it seems like its gonna be completely impossible to go up and down with any device (Camp Lift, Microtraxion etc) if you're running a backup secondary device below it? Do people just quietly roll with a single device in reality?

Are there any tricks I'm missing? I could see that extending the lift might enable me to attached a descender underneath for instance, but its pretty unappealing...

My setup for easy up and down: Fix the rope at the middle mark using a bunny ears figure 8 knot. Now you have 2 fixed lines, weight both lines with a water bottle or something similar. Microtrax held up with some sort of chest harness apparatus on one rope, an upside down grigri hanging directly off your belay loop on the other line. As long as you're using an appropriate width rope with the right amount of weight on the ropes both devices should feed fine. The upside down grigri spooks some people but as long as its rigged cleanly its fine. 

I fix a single line and run a lift on top and micro or spock below.  To go down short sections like you describe, I disengage the lift the same way you do via the pinch method.  The trick with the second device is to clip it to an extension so that it trails lower and there's more throw between the two devices.  I like a 60cm sling looped through my hard points and tied off in an overhand on a double bight.  It's also not too hard to cinch tight with two devices.  Probably easier with one, but not harder enough to merit compromising redundancy like that.  

For longer descents, I'll put the grigri below the devices, pull the backup, and then lock off on the rope above (usually putting my feet on holds on the route) and unclip the primary from my belay loop.  After that you can gingerly lower yourself onto the grigri (there's usually 3-8" of slack) and then clean your primary off the rope above.  I haven't done this fullyhanging in space, (and for sure couldn't) but usually there are enough features on the route I'm working to make it a reasonable option.  The hardest move of the sequence is unclipping the primary from your belay loop (or your locker from the primary depending on what makes more sense) and if you're strong enough to work the moves on the route, you're probably strong enough to pull this off.  I also don't use any sort of anti-crossloading carabiner and prefer one with a clean nose to make the process easier.  It's almost always easier to clip into something to do this, but in my experience is only really necessary like 5% of the time.

The trick is to get the extension of your top device correct. I used to use a short dogbone to extend my primary (spoc), but when changing to lowering the grigri would get jammed into the device unless I could unweight the system (not always feasible/usually sketchy)

I switched to a longer dogbone, now I can weight the grigri without jamming into the top device. Freehanging up/down transitions are a breeze.

Max Tepfer wrote:

I fix a single line and run a lift on top and micro or spock below.  To go down short sections like you describe, I disengage the lift the same way you do via the pinch method.  The trick with the second device is to clip it to an extension so that it trails lower and there's more throw between the two devices.  I like a 60cm sling looped through my hard points and tied off in an overhand on a double bight.  It's also not too hard to cinch tight with two devices.  Probably easier with one, but not harder enough to merit compromising redundancy like that.  

For longer descents, I'll put the grigri below the devices, pull the backup, and then lock off on the rope above (usually putting my feet on holds on the route) and unclip the primary from my belay loop.  After that you can gingerly lower yourself onto the grigri (there's usually 3-8" of slack) and then clean your primary off the rope above.  I haven't done this fullyhanging in space, (and for sure couldn't) but usually there are enough features on the route I'm working to make it a reasonable option.  The hardest move of the sequence is unclipping the primary from your belay loop (or your locker from the primary depending on what makes more sense) and if you're strong enough to work the moves on the route, you're probably strong enough to pull this off.  I also don't use any sort of anti-crossloading carabiner and prefer one with a clean nose to make the process easier.  It's almost always easier to clip into something to do this, but in my experience is only really necessary like 5% of the time.

Damn, this absolutely solves all my problems. Thanks Max!

I hadnt considered just unclipping the lift, that will be chill . I had used the shunt setup previously, where it was chill to keep it on to descent with the little cord release thing, though I must've had it slightly extended back then. 

Also, I hadn't considered this benefit of extending the backup. Very smart.

I might try a DMM ceros as the main attachment instead of the grivel. There is zero chance i'm gonna be able to undo that grivel biner while i'm locked off... Has anyone tried the DMM ceros (quicklock/locksafe) with the Camp Lift? I'm wondering if it snags at the indentation at the top of the gate? Maybe a simpler carabiner would just work anyway because the neck bungee thing will keep things orientated correctly? If I can have some setup where I don't have to even think about cross/spine-loading issue at all I would be happy.

Happy to help.  In terms of crossloading, I totally get that it provides peace of mind, but when you think about the actual mechanics of the system you're building, the probability of you creating the 8-10kn necessary to break a crossloaded carabiner is really small.  (especially if there's two of them) Something's gone very, very wrong if you've gotten to that point while tr soloing.  I also wonder if something else would break or slip first?  

Max Tepfer wrote:

Happy to help.  In terms of crossloading, I totally get that it provides peace of mind, but when you think about the actual mechanics of the system you're building, the probability of you creating the 8-10kn necessary to break a crossloaded carabiner is really small.  (especially if there's two of them) Something's gone very, very wrong if you've gotten to that point while tr soloing.  I also wonder if something else would break or slip first?  

Its a fair point, you are right. I guess its just a personal psychological thing: I've had it where I'm mid-move in extremis and glance down and everything is all fucked up slumped on the spine of the carabiner and it psyches me out. This stuff is usually happening when some slight slack has formed somehow anyway, so it's doubly alarming. I suspect these edge cases are more likely when there's less rope weight below the devices, close to the ground.

It's no big deal for me to buy a biner with a clip or ridge or whatever so that spine-sliding shit systematically can't happen. But I take your point, it's likely a minimal real risk. 

Side question: Do you put a little loop on the Lift, to hold it up and/or not drop it?

Yeah, totally.  The mental side of it is pretty real.  Especially when you're trying to get used to it for the first time.  I use a bungie/chest harness setup to keep it oriented/upright.  Not sure if that's what you're getting at with the little loop?  I've never seen anyone put a keeper loop on it. (like you sometimes see on a grigri)

My setup for easy up and down: Fix the rope at the middle mark using a bunny ears figure 8 knot. Now you have 2 fixed lines, weight both lines with a water bottle or something similar. Microtrax held up with some sort of chest harness apparatus on one rope, an upside down grigri hanging directly off your belay loop on the other line. As long as you're using an appropriate width rope with the right amount of weight on the ropes both devices should feed fine. The upside down grigri spooks some people but as long as its rigged cleanly its fine.

This i more or less me. I'm probably over safe when I TRS.. But my solution is also two lines.

 One with a Trango Vergo (or gri gri, but the vergo feeds so much better) and the other with my micro trax. I try to keep the vergo above the micro trax (neck bungee) so it's easier remove the trax when it is time to rap out.

This was the loop setup I saw. I tried out threading the bungee directly through that hole and it was pretty practical actually (for positioning, and to hold the device while installing on the rope), so I might install one of these swage loops. There is plenty of room between the plates.

The two rope solutions are obviously sound, I just want something I can port to bigger climbs also, and for trying out the fix and follow.

+1 to everything Max said in this thread. I just rig the Grigri below and unscrew my Lift screwgate, lock off on the rope, and gingerly lower down to the Grigri.

I don’t extend my secondary device (microtrax) though. So my Grigri in this specific case gets rigged below the Lift and the microtraxion .

I remove the microtraxion entirely and clip to a gear loop after the Grigri is rigged.

steve barratt wrote:

With all my climbing partners out of action with Covid, and inspired by Mikey Schaefer talking about fix and follow, I decided to dial in my toprope solo setup. I had once or twice before used a shunt, or a grigri (which sucked) for this kind of climbing at single pitch crags.

I got a Camp lift last week, which I tried out yesterday at a local crag. Using a Grivel Clepsydra S carabiner and neck bungee for positioning, it was pretty reassuring and functional. FYI, for those interested, the Clepsydra S with its little fin and chunky gate(s) completely blocks crossloading on the Lift (and microtraxion), though you may not like the (dual) gate action. I'm persevering as it is way lighter than any alternatives I can see.

The route I was working on had short 3m boulder crux, which I spent over an hour and half going up and down. With the Lift, I could tilt and pinch the device in a certain way to drop down in short batman jerks, which was pretty cool, so I could repeat the same short sequence over and over.

I tried at one point to attach a grigri underneath the device to transition to a longer descent, but nothing good happened out of that idea, as both devices jammed together in a grim, immobile mess on my belay loop. I clipped into a bolt to unweight the Lift, which worked okay, and I'm aware some similar thing could be done with another ascender, above the lift (but what a drag..).

I had also brought a microtraxion, to (perhaps..) use as a backup secondary device, but I canned this idea right at the base, as it seemed to make it impossible to cinch up the rope tight by pulling up form underneath (before sagging on the rope). I could see how this wouldn't be such a big deal in fix and follow, with more rope weight.

Anyway, this all brought up some questions to me:

First, how are these folks working the cruxes on big routes going up and down? I know it's common to use a microtraxion on the captain, but is it possible/practical to transiently disengage the cam to drop down short sections? This sounds like a sphincter-tightening experience... If someone is using the microtraxion, how are they doing the up and down?

Second, it seems like its gonna be completely impossible to go up and down with any device (Camp Lift, Microtraxion etc) if you're running a backup secondary device below it? Do people just quietly roll with a single device in reality?

Are there any tricks I'm missing? I could see that extending the lift might enable me to attached a descender underneath for instance, but its pretty unappealing...

I extend my primary PCD with a quickdraw that has locking carabiners on it. That allows plenty of room for the grigri if you to switch to descending. It also ensure your primary and secondary PCD won't interfere with eachother.

I make sure to tie the rest of the rope in ball at the base so that its weighted then you dont have to manually feed the rope through, the weight overcomes the friction of both your primary and microtrax.