Can't teach belaying in the gym?!

About 6 months ago I taught my GF how to top-rope belay in the local gym (where we are both members).  The owner of the gym (also a good friend) came up and gave her some pointers in fact.  And she took and passed the top-rope belay test immediately after this.

Today, six months later,  I started showing her how to belay a leader as well.  I was tied in as the leader and she had me on belay with the rope clipped through a draw at head-height.  It was my rope (they won't lend lead ropes during covid), and I was not climbing nor intending to climb (not even wearing climbing shoes).  I was walking back-and-forth as she took in and paid out slack. 

We were approached by a staff member who said, "you are not allowed to teach belaying in our facility."  After my exasperated response he explained, "for insurance reasons you are not allowed to supply instruction within the building.  Your only options are to teach her outside then come inside for a belay test, or take our 'Learn to Belay' class."  So we packed up and left.

Is this a common rule in gyms?  No teaching friends anything because of insurance reasons?  Weird!

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P.S. I hold no ill will toward the staffer (who has always been super kind and helpful to us) nor toward the gym.  I just can't believe this is the world we now live in.

Yeah, for liability reasons it tends to be pretty common.  A lot of gyms won't even let you mock lead to learn how to lead climb.  From a climber's/learner's perspective, it seems silly because the gym is the most controlled environment to learn these skills.  But from the perspective of the gym and the company that insures it, litigation stemming from someone's improper training could cost them thousands or hundreds of thousand of dollars.  So you can see why most gyms enforce these rules.

Top-rope belaying, lead belaying, and lead climbing courses at most gyms tend to be pretty affordable, and often come with perks like a discount on gear or a free day pass or two at the gym.  I know that still might not justify the cost of something that you can teach someone on your own outdoors for free though.    

Ya, that’s been the case in all 4 different gyms that I’ve been a member of 

Ya I tried teaching my cousin how to belay in the gym without actually climbing so he could take the test but one of the people there said that I couldn’t do that, it might make sense if we where taking forever and people wanted to climb where we where but we where like the only people there. I think they just want you to take there class.

Very common.

My gym will tell you to go do whatever you're doing out in the parking lot if you need to. It's a liability thing. 

As someone who likes my gym not being sued to death, I support them in this. 

So they're not covered for liability in their parking lot? Still their property...

John Pitcairn wrote:

So they're not covered for liability in their parking lot? Still their property...

You'll have to take that up with them.

I don't think they're worried about your friend getting hurt while you're teaching. The issue is that they have a legal obligation to vet the qualifications of people who are allowed to teach in their gym. If you teach someone something stupid and they then later dies, it's not a huge reach for a plaintiff lawyer to say they saw the bad teaching happening and should have intervened. Much harder if they ask you to leave to teach. 

I wonder if this proscription on teaching extends to teaching climbing itself?  For example, if I'm teaching my gf to dropknee on some V2, is a staffer going to come running over to tell me I can't teach her that?  That she has to take the "Learn to Climb" class from the gym?

Because what if she tries to backstep at the top of the bouldering wall and falls 15' and breaks her leg?  All because I told her to try it?

This litigious society we live in feels so weird to me.  I mean, I'm going to abide by my gym's rules, but sheesh...

John RB wrote:

About 6 months ago I taught my GF how to top-rope belay in the local gym (where we are both members).  The owner of the gym (also a good friend) came up and gave her some pointers in fact.  And she took and passed the top-rope belay test immediately after this.

Today, six months later,  I started showing her how to belay a leader as well.  I was tied in as the leader and she had me on belay with the rope clipped through a draw at head-height.  It was my rope (they won't lend lead ropes during covid), and I was not climbing nor intending to climb (not even wearing climbing shoes).  I was walking back-and-forth as she took in and paid out slack. 

We were approached by a staff member who said, "you are not allowed to teach belaying in our facility."  After my exasperated response he explained, "for insurance reasons you are not allowed to supply instruction within the building.  Your only options are to teach her outside then come inside for a belay test, or take our 'Learn to Belay' class."  So we packed up and left.

Is this a common rule in gyms?  No teaching friends anything because of insurance reasons?  Weird!

---

P.S. I hold no ill will toward the staffer (who has always been super kind and helpful to us) nor toward the gym.  I just can't believe this is the world we now live in.

Unfortunately, its the gym rules even if it isn't viewed as fair :-/

Can you smoke a cig inside a restaurant?  

John RB wrote:

I wonder if this proscription on teaching extends to teaching climbing itself?  For example, if I'm teaching my gf to dropknee on some V2, is a staffer going to come running over to tell me I can't teach her that?  That she has to take the "Learn to Climb" class from the gym?

Because what if she tries to backstep at the top of the bouldering wall and falls 15' and breaks her leg?  All because I told her to try it?

This litigious society we live in feels so weird to me.  I mean, I'm going to abide by my gym's rules, but sheesh...

Seems like you're getting pretty spun up about hypotheticals with this example. Gyms are a business. They pay lots of money in insurance. Their insurance companies spend lots of money figuring out to manage risk. While I agree our society is too litigious, it's hardly the fault of the people getting sued most of the time. There's also this wonderful thing called "the outdoors" where you can teach people whatever you want whenever you want and there's no insurance rules. 

Has anyone ever climbed in a gym where you didn’t sign a waiver absolving them of any and all liability?

The people teaching these 45 minute classes aren’t AMGA certified guides, they’re kids mostly, who took the same 45 minute class from another kid who’s worked there 3 months longer. It would seem that if they wanted to reduce their liability they wouldn’t teach anything and instead just had rules to abide by like a swimming pool or regular gym. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

Seems like you're getting pretty spun up about hypotheticals with this example. 

It's a huge mistake to try and infer someone's emotional state based on an Internet post (or text) in my experience.  

Gyms are a business. They pay lots of money in insurance. Their insurance companies spend lots of money figuring out to manage risk. 

Insurance companies are fantastically bad at understanding risk in various sports.  Mine lumps together mountaineering, alpinism and indoor top-roping all together in the same category.

While I agree our society is too litigious, it's hardly the fault of the people getting sued most of the time. There's also this wonderful thing called "the outdoors" where you can teach people whatever you want whenever you want and there's no insurance rules. 

I stated in the OP that I don't blame the gym for these ridiculous rules.  I know it's their insurance company (which is something I also said in the OP).  But thanks for explaining to me the things I said right from the outset.  Perhaps next you'll explain that it wasn't the staffer fault either?

My belaying story comes from 15 to 20 years ago. I had a friend that I took to the gym that had no climbing experience so that meant I was limited to the auto belays while I could belay him on anything. He asked me to show him how to belay so I gave him a quick run down. After the explanation, I found a climb that had a top rope set up next to an auto belay. I tied into the top rope and clipped into the auto belay and set off so he could get the feel of things. We were quickly shut down. The employee agreed that he didn't see anything unsafe about what we were  doing but for insurance reasons if we continued doing it we would be asked to leave. 

Mark: 15-20 years ago?  I somehow thought this was a new thing... guess not.

I used to teach for a guide school in the 90's, including belaying, anchor building, self-rescue, etc., and I worked in a gym for a while.  We were never told to stop people showing partners how to belay.

I did a quick web search for climbing gym deaths and couldn't find any occurring from belayer error.  There were a couple of autobelay accidents.  I had a friend who died in a gym in the 90's while free soloing routes after hours.

Gyms have changed since then; my ATC was banned recently and my gym went to grigri-only belaying, for example.

I think there needs to be a reminder about the "Insurance Boogeyman" that gets mentioned when gym rules are involved.

First, I am not an attorney, insurance agent, or a gym owner. But, according to the information I found on the internet, insurance companies do not, and can not come up with the rules that a climbing gym follows. It is gym operator's responsibility to come up with the rules. So, do not blame insurance industry that your/some gym attached GriGris to top ropes, allows or does not allow use of ABDs,  only does lead belay tests with ATC but then allows to use GriGris for lead climbing, allows to follow/doesn't allow to follow lead routes,  gives or does not give lead ropes - these are totally random rules that gym operators come up to think that their posteriors would be covered. BTW, all the "Insurance Rules" mentioned above are the ones I encountered.

amarius wrote:

insurance companies do not, and can not come up with the rules that a climbing gym follows. 

True.  I doubt the owners even read the policy.

Roughly once a month in the Boulder gyms, someone hits the floor from near the ceiling due to various flavors of shitty belaying.  The padded floors save lives.

My first gym visit was in early 90’s - teaching belaying not allowed back then either.  

John RB wrote:

Mark: 15-20 years ago?  I somehow thought this was a new thing... guess not.

Same here, I had a similar encounter in the early 2000's in a Boston gym...

I have a feeling I know which gym you're talking about.  This teaching policy seems to only be at new gyms and not established ones, in my experience.I had same experience with belaying but it got even weirder when I went and bouldered. 

My kid can't belay so between me belaying my kid, I would go do a few boulder problems real quick.... I was approached by some youngster who "just want to inform you how dangerous it is to boulder with a harness on." I said thanks for you concern but it is not dangerous. He went and got a staff member (asst. manager) who then told me the same thing and that I was not allowed to boulder with my harness on. I know I look like a gumby but I'm not taking it on and off every 4 minutes to belay my kid and then boulder 3 problems quick. I cancelled my membership right then and there. They called me about 45 minutes later to apologize and say that bouldering with a harness on isn't a policy and he can only recommend that I don't....

Long story short, I cancelled my membership there and went back to another local gym that allows you to teach belaying and actually climb.

amarius wrote:

I think there needs to be a reminder about the "Insurance Boogeyman" that gets mentioned when gym rules are involved.

First, I am not an attorney, insurance agent, or a gym owner. But, according to the information I found on the internet, insurance companies do not, and can not come up with the rules that a climbing gym follows. It is gym operator's responsibility to come up with the rules. So, do not blame insurance industry that your/some gym attached GriGris to top ropes, allows or does not allow use of ABDs,  only does lead belay tests with ATC but then allows to use GriGris for lead climbing, allows to follow/doesn't allow to follow lead routes,  gives or does not give lead ropes - these are totally random rules that gym operators come up to think that their posteriors would be covered. BTW, all the "Insurance Rules" mentioned above are the ones I encountered.

What you say is true on its face. However, a business owner exposes themselves to liability and potentially a denied insurance claim if it is demonstrated that said business owner deviated from industry standards, internal policy, or that  the business lacked an internal policy. 

It’s been a rule in every gym I have ever visited.

amarius wrote:

I think there needs to be a reminder about the "Insurance Boogeyman" that gets mentioned when gym rules are involved.

First, I am not an attorney, insurance agent, or a gym owner. But, according to the information I found on the internet, insurance companies do not, and can not come up with the rules 

FWIW, I work in liability defense. Some of the biggest public institutions in America are my clients. None are climbing gyms. But how getting sued works is that if you are following best-practices and standards in whatever your business is, whether its brain surgery or building a sidewalk, it's much harder for a plaintiff to prevail. The INSTANT you are seen as having not followed an established standard or policy, things get a lot more difficult.

Insurance companies don't write the rules. However, they DO cancel policies when their clients don't follow well-established safety guidelines. Those are often based on avoiding bad things that have happened to other insured entities in the past. So, for example, belay tests became a standard when gyms got sued for not making sure people knew WTF they were doing.

The boogeyman isn't the insurance company, per se. It's the very real prospect of getting sued if something goes wrong and being in a difficult to defend position. Lose even a single lawsuit or negotiate a significant settlement for something stupid that happened in your organization and your premium can skyrocket or it becomes difficult to get insurance at all. 
It's a miracle, really, that we get any nice things at all.