Down VS Synthetic for Alpine Climbing

Kyle Tarry wrote:

thru-hiker.  

Andrew Skurka argues that down is so thermally superior to synthetics that even a damp down bag could be warmer than an equivalent-weight synthetic.  

Ryan Mac wrote:

Just out of curiosity are you guys in the down crowd bringing your damp day clothes into the bag at night to dry them? And if not how are you managing this?

Same answer as Kyle.
You shouldn't have tons of damp/wet clothes. 3 items may be worth considering IMHO.
You may have wet gloves so just bring a second or even a third pair on snow routes
Wet t-shirt/baselayer should dry in minutes when you stop if you choose a merino one
Socks may be damp from sweat but will dry inside the sleeping bag, if they are really wet maybe buy better boots or consider gaiters

I seem to recall a certain company in Seattle made their name hand-sewing down sleeping bags for mountaineers pursuing objectives in the Cascades...

Yeah, I have a couple of their bags. The -20 with 4 extra oz of down is very nice. 

I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of "dry down" in this thread. I did the John Muir Trail four years ago, my first "through hike." That experience turned me on to dry down quilts. I now own two quilts and three of the big agnes dry down system bags. I have not slept on snow yet but the benefits of the dry technology are obvious. Moisture travels through the bag and condenses on the outer surface where it is easily removed. The down fill doesn't bunch or gain much if any weight. 

I see that folks are now making down jackets with the same technology. I'm very tempted to get one.

It all gets wet regardless of that technology and TV commercials of dudes jumping into lakes. 

Anything works in California or Utah. It's hard sometimes that most of the outdoor industry is out there. Pretending to test rain gear by jumping in the shower etc.. 

But anyway I've tried every iteration of down voodoo including down/synthetic blend. Gets wet. 

Everything gets wet below 16,000'. That's why I like down. I've been wet in both, down still insulates. Have the right gear and you won't get as wet.

jdejace, ever cross the Sierra Nevada range in the winter. -20 at 11,000' is a wee bit cool. 

Kyle Tarry wrote:

I don't think the word of two climbers should be the end of the conversation,

Sorry you were the third post on the thread so your points are invalid. 

jdejace wrote:

But anyway I've tried every iteration of down voodoo including down/synthetic blend. Gets wet. 

How many nights have you spent in a sleeping bag in Washington in the alpine?  That would be helpful to understand how applicable your experience is to the OPs specific scenario of Cascades mountaineering routes.

My only bag is a 20 deg down North Face Blue Kazoo from 1995.

It has gotten me up Baker, Rainier, Shuksan, etc. I normally sleep in a tent and rarely had any issues, though I don't climb in the winter and generally just stay home if the weather forecast sucks. But I was drenched in a bivy sac on Forbidden last summer. Woke up cold in the middle of the night and shivered for a couple hours.

When I buy a new bag it will be likely be a dry down with a shell made to shed light moisture. You who sleep in bivy bags might have other preferences. 

ddriver wrote:

I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of "dry down" in this thread. I did the John Muir Trail four years ago, my first "through hike." 

Feathered Friends response to "DriDown" technology:

Do you use water-resistant down?

Treated down (“dry down”) is a technology that was developed to decrease drying time for hotel comforters in commercial dryers, and we very purposefully do not use it in any of our products. Besides decreasing the longevity of the high-quality down we use by stripping the down of its natural oils, we’ve also seen little real-world benefit to the use of durable water repellency (DWR) directly on the down plume. Wet down clusters do not insulate, regardless of any coating applied to keep them dry, and we’ve found that body heat or ambient air flow -- rather than a dryer-- isn’t sufficient to make dry down an effective tool in keeping you dry, and therefore warm. Treated down is also more prone to clumping than untreated down, which makes it tricky to keep properly lofted within a garment or sleeping bag. The bottom line: untreated down will last longer and perform better than treated down, a view shared by some of the field’s leading manufacturers. Because of this, it’s important to keep your down sleeping bags and garments as dry as possible, which is why all of our sleeping bags and garments use a water-repellent or waterproof fabric.

I'm a big fan of Feathered Friends down bags (have two, -30 and 10F).  Also have a lightweight Marmot bag that's got down fill that I really like.  

Have an older Integral Designs synthetic fill bag that I also like.

For me, alpine climbing, really depends on the conditions you'll encounter during the trip.  If I was starting out at lower elevation with a potential for rain forest and torrential down pours on the approach hike up into the alpine, then I'd probably consider synthetic.  Otherwise, I'd use down.  I find it lighter, more compressable, warmer for the weight, and it dries fast enough if it gets damp.  

I also sleep warm and put out a bunch of heat.  So, any socks, gloves, boot liners, etc, in a down bag with me usually dry overnight.  

I find when I'm damp and crawl into a bag, the synthetic always feels more clammy to me and it seems to take longer to dry out.  

Kyle Tarry wrote:

How many nights have you spent in a sleeping bag in Washington in the alpine?  That would be helpful to understand how applicable your experience is to the OPs specific scenario of Cascades mountaineering routes.

Half dozen nights on the usual tourist routes in the usual tourist season (late Spring/early Summer). Bivy sack or single wall tent. Mostly good weather, couple bad nights. 

Brian in SLC wrote:

Feathered Friends response to "DriDown" technology:

Do you use water-resistant down?

I read that bit when I was looking at dry down some time back.  I don't think everyone agrees with them and much like membranes there now appear to be a number of proprietary products.  I have a number of Marmot gore-tex down bags and the fill does on occasion get damp, for whatever reason.  Once that happens it can be tough or time consuming to get the insulation factor back.  I have in my limited use so far not had my dry down absorb noticeable moisture.  Hoping someone else here has more experience with it.  One of our dry quilts is made by Thermarest.

Regarding jacket technology, I was looking at these that use dry down.  I would guess there are more options out there.  

Rab Neutrino: https://rab.equipment/us/neutrino-pro-jacket

BD Vision: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/vision-down-parka-AP746120_cfg.html

Himali Altocumulus: https://himalilife.com/products/copy-of-the-altocumulus-down-jacket-2-0-monk-red

As an employee of an aforementioned Seattle based sleeping bag company, I'd like to weigh in on this. I believe that if you aren't an idiot, you can make a down sleeping bag work in all environments. It's really not that hard to keep your down dry if you are smart, moderately careful, and use an appropriate bag.

That being said, I think there are times that a synthetic bag is better. One of those being wall climbing in the winter. You could definitely use a down bag, but probably don't want to.

Jackets and parkas on the other hand are a very different story. If you are going to expect classic cascades 29-34 degree heavy snow rain mix, a synthetic jacket comes in very handy. If it is going to be consistently cold and dry, down all the way.

To add to the "who did X with Y" list. Steve Swenson used an FF Vireo on Link Sar, paired with a Synthetic Arc'teryx Dually, and some down pants. 

In my eyes, a combo of the two materials is best.

Yeah, packing down up tight while moist/humid is what does it in. Jacket gets packed up more often and more likely to get wet in the first place. 

I won't belabor the points made previously.  You can make either work.  Down requires a bit more thoughtfulness if you want to keep it dry.  Synthetics are generally heavier and may require more pack space.

Very few routes in the Cascades require climbing the hard parts with a sleeping bag in your backpack.  On most routes, you hike up, establish a base camp, climb the route, return to base camp, pack up and leave.  For these routes, the additional weight and volume of a synthetic sleeping bag is insignificant.  If you are climbing a carryover route (at your limit), then perhaps that additional weight and volume may matter.  

If you don't already, I suggest learning how to sleep with all of your layers on (except impermeable shells).  Get insulated synthetic clothes that dry easily and breathe well. Then decide how much sleeping bag you really want/need.  It saves time getting undressed and dressed.  It helps you dry out your clothes overnight.  It also provides some insurance against a wet sleeping bag or a popped mattress.  

Michael T wrote:

To add to the "who did X with Y" list. Steve Swenson used an FF Vireo on Link Sar, paired with a Synthetic Arc'teryx Dually, and some down pants. 

That's great info!  I usually always have some type of warmer layer (parka) on any foray into the alpine.  Bulding that into the sleep system totally makes sense.

Wow...25F bag for less than a pound.  Bet it compresses nice and small too.  Sweet...thanks!

Funny how many bags and systems I've tried over the years...an old favorite was the MEC penguin overbag.  Used it by itself a bunch.  Great bag unless its below freezing and you don't have warm enough clothes to sleep in.  And, as a climbing friend has said, if you're not sleeping in all of your clothes, you brought too much stuff.

One thing I've noticed, at least with the down bags that I've owned, is they seem to last.  Especially if they're stored loose.  I still have my old REI bag from the mid-70's.  Never know it was that old unless you looked at the label.  Still use it mostly for colder car camping.  Still gets 'er done.

That is my preferred bag design for climbing trips when it's not toooo arctic. I have down and synthetic versions. Mine are from Nunatak but FF certainly don't make junk and you get an AAC discount.